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embrace yourself because you're about to

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dive into another free first hour

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episode of the higher side chats and we

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just want to let you know that whether

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you're looking for a companion through

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your paranoid insomnia entertaining

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yourself through one of life's mundane

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activities or trying to ward off the

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internal scream to all those sad

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smothered Souls around the office THC is

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here and you should know that every

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episode of the higher side chats has an

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entire second hour four plus members

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sign up at the higher side chats plus

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calm and you get years of plus show

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archives lifetime forum access the

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special invite to Greg Carl woods

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monthly joint sessions mp3s of THC music

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and bonus episodes for videos and 10%

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off t-shirts grinders and whatever else

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ends up in the higher side store it's

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eight dollars a month that you won't

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miss so become a plus member and treat

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yourself in these troubled times always

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action-packed and commercial for you

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which means you'll unfortunately never

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hear my voice here we go people lean

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mean and trying not to get crushed by

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the big machine from sunny San Diego i'm

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greg carl wood and it's no surprise that

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the history of european expansion was a

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violent and bloody one that used and

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abused almost any indigenous culture

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that they came across but outside of

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those broad statements the details of

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that systemic steamroll are typically

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glossed over and if little uncomfortable

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truths can be skimmed past and

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downplayed they usually are but that

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mistreatment of the other expands much

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further than we might think because the

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genocide of native americans and the use

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of african slaves are not isolated

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incidents and when you consider the

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expansion of the American Empire and the

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Forgotten territories around the globe

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that it

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does or has controlled the

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disenfranchised are not a distant

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uncomfortable memory they're essentially

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a staple of how the American Empire has

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and currently does still operate well

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folks it is these neglected colonies and

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territories that are the offerings in

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the higher side table today as they are

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also the subject of the latest book by

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today's guest Daniel M Erb are entitled

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how to hide an empire a history of the

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greater United States where he relays

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interesting aspects of history that

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don't often make it into the schoolbooks

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and details are complicated relationship

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with areas like Guam Hawaii Puerto Rico

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Guantanamo Bay and the philippines just

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to name a few if you're unfamiliar with

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Daniel he is a scholar of us and global

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history specializing in empire

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development and the history of ideas

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currently working as associate professor

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of the history department at

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Northwestern University but he's also

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taught at Berkley Columbia and San

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Quentin State Prison so let's do the

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damn thing the Empire educator forgotten

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history highlighter an advocate for the

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often forgotten Daniel my man

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welcome to the higher side pleasure to

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be here hey this is a real treat man

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thanks for doing it I loved your book

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how to hide an empire a history of the

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greater United States and the audience

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knows I've been searching for something

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like this for a while now because these

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are the sorts of stories and situations

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that I like to highlight here the

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general abuses of empire and the big

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machine but to fit so much of it in one

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book is really great to see to get this

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thing going what can you tell us about

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the genesis of this book and why you

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felt it was such an important one to

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write

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yes so I have been teaching his history

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for a while and I taught it at Berkeley

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and I taught it as he said at San

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Quentin at the prison and I taught it

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the way that most people teach it

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it was so standard that I could be sick

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for a day and say can you cover me we're

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doing the Gilded Age and someone else

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could come in and they would pick up

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right where I'd left off there's a kind

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of way that we know how to teach that

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and that's fine and that's good we work

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collectively historian to figure out the

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story for a while we all kind of talk

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about it and then I was doing some

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research about something else and I went

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to in a course of that research I went

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to Manila in the Philippines and it was

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just struck by the place and there's a

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lot to see there but one thing that

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really surprised me was I thought oh my

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god it just feels so familiar in a

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family resemblance kind of way so I

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would see streets that were named after

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US presidents you know like up to

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Eisenhower

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I would Ord the transit system which is

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based on surplus US Army jeeps I would

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go to the University there the Ateneo de

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Manila University and I would hear

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people speak English with an accent that

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wasn't too different from my

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Pennsylvania accent and what I'd known

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that the Philippines had been a colony

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of the United States I totally knew that

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I had a PhD in US history

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I could not be accused of not knowing

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that but I think there's a difference

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between knowing something and doing it

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like really getting it at fully

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understanding implications and I would

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say that I didn't really know it in that

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second sense I didn't really think about

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it a lot but when you're there standing

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in the street corner in Manila between

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like Washington and Madison Street it's

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hard not to think about that a little

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more and I got back and I realized that

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the way I've been teaching US history

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wasn't quite right

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because you know I'd make fleeting

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mention to the Philippines in 1898 when

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its acquired and then I would talk about

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a war and then it just disappeared from

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my story and it wasn't just the

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Philippines like where was Hawaii where

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was Guam where was Puerto Rico and you

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know I was telling US history but I

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realized that what I was doing was just

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telling the history of the States but

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were the territories that became States

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and there's this whole other part of the

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United States that wasn't in that story

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that wasn't in that narrative so my goal

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here and right

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this book was to tell us history but

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where the United States isn't just the

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states or future states alone it's the

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whole thing with some people at the turn

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of the 20th century called the greater

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United States hmm well said yes we know

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the bullet points to a lot of this stuff

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but the depth of those bullet points and

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their implications are just not sat with

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often enough and of course this is an

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audio show so we don't have the visual

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component of the book or your previous

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presentations that I've seen but I

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wanted to ask you about maps because

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even though the u.s. controls or did

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control a lot of these places they don't

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make it on the maps as they should and

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that's a bigger deal than people might

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think talk to us about the typical US

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map and really the psychological effects

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that can come from how they're made and

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displayed Greg I wake up every morning

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hoping that someone is going to ask me

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about maps and you know usually I'm

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disappointed but today's a good day and

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I want to thank you for that yeah that's

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right Maps you know the visual

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representation of the country turns out

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to be really important and if you ask

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most people in the United States or most

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people in the world to map this country

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in their heads just to call to mind what

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they think it looks like there's a

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familiar shape that's gonna come to mind

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and you know that shape it's the

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contiguous blob the thing that is

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suspended between Canada and Mexico and

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the oceans and you know a lot of people

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know they're like oh wait Alaska and

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Hawaii are part of the - but that's

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usually how it looks to people and then

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that becomes the shape of US history

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u.s. history is what happens within that

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map maybe wood Alaskan Hawaii after they

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become States look I grew up in

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Pennsylvania I studied history I studied

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history in college at no point that I

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see a map of the united states that had

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Puerto Rico on it and I should have

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Puerto Rico has been part of the United

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States for more than a century

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why isn't Porter we go on the map so I

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found myself as I was writing this book

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realizing that I wasn't trying to

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rewrite US history I was also trying to

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remap the United States and I had to

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learn how to make maps and then I like

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went back and I was like okay this is a

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map as you've seen it this is a map as

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it should look and as I did that I found

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that I was surprising myself that the

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United States

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looks different once you've got it all

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mapped out correctly with equal area

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projections you realize like how much

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land in the United States has not been

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part of the states or future states

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right and the amount of people that are

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in these outside territories is quite

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large and surprising I would have

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thought obviously they're inhabited but

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I guess I just didn't realize to what

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extent because you've talked about kind

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of the the numbers and it's a little

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shocking that it periods the past I

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believe maybe was it one in eight people

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who were under the umbrella of the

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Empire were actually outside of the

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continuous blob yeah no that's right so

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when I was preparing the book and

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talking with editors we had a cover

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designer and I said to the publishers

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it's important on the cover to see these

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other parts of the United States places

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that don't always make it on to the maps

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and you know cover design is a tricky

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business how do you show that you

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actually show them in that form or what

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and one of the early drafts was of the

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Philippines and American Samoa and Guam

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and Puerto Rico and they were all

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represented as little like New Yorker

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style islands with one palm tree coming

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up from them and you know I think that's

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an image that's pretty common I think

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that usually to the degree that people

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in the United States who are living in

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the US mainland and not in these places

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acknowledge that oh yeah there's Guam

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yeah of course Guam is also a place the

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US Virgin Islands that's right yeah they

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also exist usually the assumption is

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that these are really small places just

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little tiny geographical crumbs and so

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small that yeah they're there but their

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footnotes you don't have to think about

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them very hard except sometimes you read

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a news article but it's not important

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it's not central to you can tell the

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story of the United States without those

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footnotes in them you can tell the story

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of the United States without Guam and I

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would say two things to that one is just

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what you said it turns out that the

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overseas territories of the United

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States actually been quite populous and

274
00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:29,880
so in 1940 which is about the peak of

275
00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:32,610
the United States is colonial empire if

276
00:10:37,129 --> 00:10:35,730
you add up everyone who's living in the

277
00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:37,139
overseas territory so outside of the

278
00:10:42,710 --> 00:10:39,689
States you got nearly 19 million people

279
00:10:44,929 --> 00:10:42,720
and just as you said that's one in eight

280
00:10:46,489 --> 00:10:44,939
people who live in the United States so

281
00:10:48,049 --> 00:10:46,499
if you live somewhere in the United

282
00:10:50,119 --> 00:10:48,059
States not just a state you might live

283
00:10:51,590 --> 00:10:50,129
in the Philippines there's a 1 in 8

284
00:10:53,629 --> 00:10:51,600
chance that you're doing that because

285
00:10:55,609 --> 00:10:53,639
you're colonized and just to be clear

286
00:10:57,199 --> 00:10:55,619
about that scope of those numbers that

287
00:10:59,720 --> 00:10:57,209
means that if you live in the United

288
00:11:01,789 --> 00:10:59,730
States in 1940 you're more likely to be

289
00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:01,799
colonized than you are to be African

290
00:11:05,359 --> 00:11:03,689
American that's how many colonized

291
00:11:06,799 --> 00:11:05,369
people there are in the country it also

292
00:11:09,439 --> 00:11:06,809
means that if you live in the United

293
00:11:10,609 --> 00:11:09,449
States in 1940 you're more likely to be

294
00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:10,619
colonized than you are to be an

295
00:11:13,669 --> 00:11:12,569
immigrant that's how many colonized

296
00:11:16,729 --> 00:11:13,679
people there are that's a huge

297
00:11:19,579 --> 00:11:16,739
population the other thing that you can

298
00:11:21,259 --> 00:11:19,589
say in response to this notion that the

299
00:11:23,150 --> 00:11:21,269
Guam's of the country are just footnotes

300
00:11:25,309 --> 00:11:23,160
is that it's not just that a lot of

301
00:11:27,470 --> 00:11:25,319
people live in these places it's not a

302
00:11:30,019 --> 00:11:27,480
lot of stuff happens in these places it

303
00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:30,029
turns out that a lot of US history takes

304
00:11:34,340 --> 00:11:32,970
place in the periphery in these places

305
00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:34,350
that are marginal that are hard to see

306
00:11:38,599 --> 00:11:35,850
from the perspective of the mainland

307
00:11:40,009 --> 00:11:38,609
movers start their presidents sort of

308
00:11:41,829 --> 00:11:40,019
get you know crucial experience they're

309
00:11:44,210 --> 00:11:41,839
important medicines are tested they're

310
00:11:45,619 --> 00:11:44,220
places that are different and that have

311
00:11:46,759 --> 00:11:45,629
different kind of laws or different kind

312
00:11:48,979 --> 00:11:46,769
of spaces turn out to be really useful

313
00:11:50,780 --> 00:11:48,989
to the United States to the point where

314
00:11:52,850 --> 00:11:50,790
it's actually hard to explain US history

315
00:11:57,829 --> 00:11:52,860
without the Philippines as part of the

316
00:12:00,049 --> 00:11:57,839
story mm-hmm-hmm yeah depictions are so

317
00:12:02,569 --> 00:12:00,059
influential and often they don't match

318
00:12:04,819 --> 00:12:02,579
the reality I've actually heard about

319
00:12:07,069 --> 00:12:04,829
the psychological effects of just the

320
00:12:09,169 --> 00:12:07,079
traditional world map talked about where

321
00:12:11,389 --> 00:12:09,179
the world of course is a globe but the

322
00:12:13,970 --> 00:12:11,399
map we know has Europe and America

323
00:12:16,879 --> 00:12:13,980
featured prominently on top and the

324
00:12:19,539 --> 00:12:16,889
sizes are also warped to make them look

325
00:12:22,689 --> 00:12:19,549
bigger and not so dwarfed in size by

326
00:12:25,429 --> 00:12:22,699
Africa as the reality would show and

327
00:12:27,739 --> 00:12:25,439
it's just crazy to think about the

328
00:12:30,439 --> 00:12:27,749
implications of that because they seem

329
00:12:32,389 --> 00:12:30,449
like small details but they just inform

330
00:12:34,579 --> 00:12:32,399
our entire worldview in some cases

331
00:12:37,279 --> 00:12:34,589
yeah and just that phrase you used

332
00:12:39,590 --> 00:12:37,289
worldview I mean that's a visual

333
00:12:40,939 --> 00:12:39,600
metaphor right there we think that way

334
00:12:42,499 --> 00:12:40,949
and the thing that helps us think that

335
00:12:43,590 --> 00:12:42,509
way is the picture of the world is the

336
00:12:47,460 --> 00:12:43,600
map

337
00:12:48,990 --> 00:12:47,470
and so to jump to a particular chapter

338
00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:49,000
of history that you talked about early

339
00:12:53,850 --> 00:12:51,250
on the book I was really surprised how

340
00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:53,860
little I knew about the events of what

341
00:12:59,460 --> 00:12:56,770
we call Pearl Harbor we know it as an

342
00:13:02,070 --> 00:12:59,470
attack on Hawaii but we're missing a lot

343
00:13:05,130 --> 00:13:02,080
as you say a lot of US history happens

344
00:13:06,990 --> 00:13:05,140
in these unincorporated areas and Pearl

345
00:13:09,900 --> 00:13:07,000
Harbor is a great example of that isn't

346
00:13:12,090 --> 00:13:09,910
it yeah it's a great and so Pearl Harbor

347
00:13:13,710 --> 00:13:12,100
is such a key moment in US history I

348
00:13:16,590 --> 00:13:13,720
think if you were to ask people in the

349
00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:16,600
country which historical events do they

350
00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:19,090
know by date so not just a year that

351
00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:20,650
they happen but literally the date I

352
00:13:24,570 --> 00:13:23,170
think you'd probably only get three so

353
00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:24,580
July 4th the signing of the Declaration

354
00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:27,370
of Independence September 11th attacks

355
00:13:32,220 --> 00:13:30,010
in 2001 and then the other one did date

356
00:13:35,150 --> 00:13:32,230
which will live in infamy December 7th

357
00:13:38,070 --> 00:13:35,160
1941 Pearl Harbor but here's the thing

358
00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:38,080
despite how important the harbor is to

359
00:13:42,540 --> 00:13:39,970
every telling of US national history

360
00:13:44,250 --> 00:13:42,550
usually when it gets told it gets told

361
00:13:47,070 --> 00:13:44,260
I wouldn't say wrong but it's really

362
00:13:50,340 --> 00:13:47,080
misleading in a confusing way so the

363
00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:50,350
story as I was taught it was Japan

364
00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:51,850
attacked the United States at the Pearl

365
00:13:55,710 --> 00:13:54,130
Harbor naval base in Hawaii I did great

366
00:13:58,530 --> 00:13:55,720
damage that pulled the United States

367
00:14:00,330 --> 00:13:58,540
into World War two and it was a tragedy

368
00:14:03,150 --> 00:14:00,340
and it was also the only time that US

369
00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:03,160
soil was attacked in the war that's the

370
00:14:08,550 --> 00:14:04,930
stories I knew it here's what I wasn't

371
00:14:12,150 --> 00:14:08,560
hearing which is within hours Japan also

372
00:14:15,420 --> 00:14:12,160
attacked Wake Island Guam and the

373
00:14:17,430 --> 00:14:15,430
Philippines and then meanwhile it also

374
00:14:19,140 --> 00:14:17,440
attacked the British colonies of Hong

375
00:14:21,060 --> 00:14:19,150
Kong and Malaya and the independent

376
00:14:23,790 --> 00:14:21,070
Kingdom of Thailand this wasn't just an

377
00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:23,800
attack on Pearl Harbor this was a sort

378
00:14:28,620 --> 00:14:26,650
of sweep the leg attack on European

379
00:14:31,170 --> 00:14:28,630
empires in the Pacific because Japan was

380
00:14:33,450 --> 00:14:31,180
trying to take other people's colonies

381
00:14:34,590 --> 00:14:33,460
that's what it was trying to do and the

382
00:14:36,270 --> 00:14:34,600
Philippines is particularly important in

383
00:14:38,670 --> 00:14:36,280
this regard because the Philippines is

384
00:14:40,770 --> 00:14:38,680
first of all the largest colony that the

385
00:14:42,450 --> 00:14:40,780
United States has Hawaii is an overseas

386
00:14:44,550 --> 00:14:42,460
territory not a state at this point so

387
00:14:46,740 --> 00:14:44,560
is the Philippines and the Army says

388
00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:46,750
that the damage done the military damage

389
00:14:50,940 --> 00:14:47,890
done to the United States in the

390
00:14:53,310 --> 00:14:50,950
Philippines was as great as that done to

391
00:14:55,710 --> 00:14:53,320
the US military in Hawaii but there's

392
00:14:56,470 --> 00:14:55,720
one really important difference which is

393
00:14:59,710 --> 00:14:56,480
that

394
00:15:02,110 --> 00:14:59,720
was attacked at Pearl Harbor

395
00:15:04,569 --> 00:15:02,120
it wasn't attacked again and then the

396
00:15:05,980 --> 00:15:04,579
war ensued the Philippines got attacked

397
00:15:09,579 --> 00:15:05,990
they got attacked again

398
00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:09,589
he got evaded it got occupied and for

399
00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:11,570
the bulk of the war the Philippines

400
00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:13,250
along with Guam and Wake Island and

401
00:15:18,009 --> 00:15:14,930
actually this happened a little later

402
00:15:20,139 --> 00:15:18,019
part of Alaska became occupied Japanese

403
00:15:22,300 --> 00:15:20,149
territory and endured a brutal war as

404
00:15:26,050 --> 00:15:22,310
they were under Japanese colonial rule

405
00:15:28,629 --> 00:15:26,060
and the war in the Pacific in particular

406
00:15:30,340 --> 00:15:28,639
Philippines we think killed more than a

407
00:15:32,860 --> 00:15:30,350
million Filipinos that's more than a

408
00:15:34,180 --> 00:15:32,870
million u.s. nationals who died and that

409
00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:34,190
just you don't even hear about that

410
00:15:40,329 --> 00:15:36,410
because Hawaii was the only part of the

411
00:15:44,110 --> 00:15:40,339
US soil that was struck that's so

412
00:15:47,500 --> 00:15:44,120
interesting and write the numbers 1.1

413
00:15:49,449 --> 00:15:47,510
million Filipinos estimated or even 1.6

414
00:15:52,030 --> 00:15:49,459
overall when you consider all the deaths

415
00:15:54,910 --> 00:15:52,040
that were involved in this area and

416
00:15:58,150 --> 00:15:54,920
that's as you say the death toll twice

417
00:15:59,829 --> 00:15:58,160
that of the Civil War yeah that's two

418
00:16:01,540 --> 00:15:59,839
civil wars that the bloodiest thing

419
00:16:04,660 --> 00:16:01,550
that's ever happened in US history by

420
00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:04,670
far and you know if you look in US

421
00:16:08,110 --> 00:16:06,410
history textbooks you might not see it

422
00:16:09,130 --> 00:16:08,120
at all because despite the fact that

423
00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:09,140
it's the bloodiest thing that ever

424
00:16:14,949 --> 00:16:11,810
happened on US soil there's a confusion

425
00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:14,959
in textbooks about what exactly US soil

426
00:16:19,439 --> 00:16:17,570
is and what places count on what places

427
00:16:21,910 --> 00:16:19,449
don't and that is really conditioned

428
00:16:23,980 --> 00:16:21,920
frankly by who lives in those places so

429
00:16:25,630 --> 00:16:23,990
Filipinos a u.s. nationals but there's a

430
00:16:28,420 --> 00:16:25,640
persistent sense during the colonial

431
00:16:30,130 --> 00:16:28,430
period and frankly after that Filipinos

432
00:16:31,689 --> 00:16:30,140
despite being US Nationals despite

433
00:16:32,590 --> 00:16:31,699
coming under the US flag despite having

434
00:16:34,780 --> 00:16:32,600
the President as their

435
00:16:37,810 --> 00:16:34,790
commander-in-chief we're never really

436
00:16:39,430 --> 00:16:37,820
didn't really count as Americans and

437
00:16:40,660 --> 00:16:39,440
therefore when you tell the story about

438
00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:40,670
the United States you don't really have

439
00:16:44,199 --> 00:16:42,050
to talk about the Philippines because

440
00:16:45,910 --> 00:16:44,209
it's just yes technically it's part of

441
00:16:47,829 --> 00:16:45,920
the country but it's not really part of

442
00:16:49,090 --> 00:16:47,839
the country and if you're telling the

443
00:16:50,199 --> 00:16:49,100
history of the United States you don't

444
00:16:55,389 --> 00:16:50,209
need the Philippines as part of that

445
00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:55,399
story right it is very sad that I mean

446
00:16:58,449 --> 00:16:57,050
the people who write the history books I

447
00:17:00,280 --> 00:16:58,459
guess they assume hey the book can only

448
00:17:03,460 --> 00:17:00,290
be so long let's just leave out the

449
00:17:06,579 --> 00:17:03,470
brown people entirely and that's no way

450
00:17:09,790 --> 00:17:06,589
to record history and the way that

451
00:17:12,010 --> 00:17:09,800
Roosevelt crafted his speech or his

452
00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:12,020
to the people after the attack I think

453
00:17:16,630 --> 00:17:13,850
that probably has a lot to do with how

454
00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:16,640
we perceive the events of that day why

455
00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:18,650
do you think he made the choices that he

456
00:17:22,290 --> 00:17:19,810
did

457
00:17:24,210 --> 00:17:22,300
this story is incredible so first of all

458
00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:24,220
no one knows what to call the attack

459
00:17:27,900 --> 00:17:26,050
right because it happened in a lot of

460
00:17:30,270 --> 00:17:27,910
different places and it's very confusing

461
00:17:32,190 --> 00:17:30,280
and people don't know how to describe it

462
00:17:33,810 --> 00:17:32,200
now we have a descriptor we just say

463
00:17:36,060 --> 00:17:33,820
Pearl Harbor and then you know what we

464
00:17:37,620 --> 00:17:36,070
mean and that's that but people didn't

465
00:17:39,690 --> 00:17:37,630
have that description back then it took

466
00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:39,700
days for the first newspaper to describe

467
00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:41,530
the event to give the name to the event

468
00:17:46,110 --> 00:17:44,410
and the name was Pearl Harbor you can

469
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:46,120
see newspaper editors like trying to

470
00:17:49,290 --> 00:17:47,410
figure out what to call it try to figure

471
00:17:52,710 --> 00:17:49,300
out what to say the Japanese attacked

472
00:17:54,300 --> 00:17:52,720
Hawaii and Guam but one paper has it the

473
00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:54,310
Japanese attacked the Philippines in

474
00:17:58,800 --> 00:17:55,690
Hawaii it's really not clear which

475
00:18:00,450 --> 00:17:58,810
target deserves more emphasis Eleanor

476
00:18:02,250 --> 00:18:00,460
Roosevelt gave a speech before FDR's

477
00:18:03,750 --> 00:18:02,260
speech and that's what she said she said

478
00:18:05,730 --> 00:18:03,760
this is an attack on our citizens in

479
00:18:07,890 --> 00:18:05,740
Hawaii in the Philippines and that's

480
00:18:09,750 --> 00:18:07,900
actually how FDR had initially drafted

481
00:18:11,910 --> 00:18:09,760
this speech when he was describing the

482
00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:11,920
targets he said this is an attack on

483
00:18:16,290 --> 00:18:14,290
Hawaii in the Philippines and then this

484
00:18:18,210 --> 00:18:16,300
really wild thing happened and we know

485
00:18:19,410 --> 00:18:18,220
this because we have his first draft and

486
00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:19,420
we have his next draft and we have all

487
00:18:23,730 --> 00:18:21,370
of his successive drafts and then we

488
00:18:25,350 --> 00:18:23,740
have is like handwritten notes where

489
00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:25,360
he'll cross things out then write things

490
00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:27,970
in and what you can see FDR doing over

491
00:18:32,910 --> 00:18:30,850
the course of hours is crossing out

492
00:18:35,670 --> 00:18:32,920
prominent references to the Philippines

493
00:18:38,220 --> 00:18:35,680
and making the attack on Hawaii alone

494
00:18:39,300 --> 00:18:38,230
there is still a reference later in the

495
00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:39,310
back part of the speech to the

496
00:18:43,350 --> 00:18:41,650
Philippines but it's reference to all

497
00:18:44,730 --> 00:18:43,360
the targets and it's not clear which

498
00:18:45,780 --> 00:18:44,740
ones are British and which ones are US

499
00:18:47,460 --> 00:18:45,790
and which ones are foreign which ones

500
00:18:49,260 --> 00:18:47,470
are not but the speech as you know it is

501
00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:49,270
the speech about an attack on Hawaii

502
00:18:54,420 --> 00:18:51,250
speech that Japan attacked the United

503
00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:54,430
States at Hawaii and then she had this

504
00:18:59,040 --> 00:18:56,050
question of why what was going through

505
00:19:00,960 --> 00:18:59,050
EFT ours mind I think it's this issue of

506
00:19:02,430 --> 00:19:00,970
what really counts as the United States

507
00:19:04,410 --> 00:19:02,440
or not we have opinion polls from the

508
00:19:06,390 --> 00:19:04,420
time that suggest that people in the

509
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:06,400
United States were really reluctant to

510
00:19:10,050 --> 00:19:08,650
see the US military be used and defend

511
00:19:11,430 --> 00:19:10,060
the Philippines it didn't really count

512
00:19:13,890 --> 00:19:11,440
as part of the country and they're

513
00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:13,900
thinking Hawaii was a territory too and

514
00:19:17,790 --> 00:19:15,490
even there that was kind of wobbly but

515
00:19:19,650 --> 00:19:17,800
Hawaii had significantly larger number

516
00:19:21,570 --> 00:19:19,660
of white people it wasn't white majority

517
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:21,580
but it had a lot of white people in it

518
00:19:26,070 --> 00:19:24,250
and I think that made it easier for FDR

519
00:19:30,300 --> 00:19:26,080
and for his audience to conceive of

520
00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:30,310
Hawaii as American as the u.s. soil even

521
00:19:33,810 --> 00:19:31,810
after the speech it was a little you

522
00:19:34,050 --> 00:19:33,820
know you can see sort of wavering zazz

523
00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:34,060
peak

524
00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:35,170
we're trying to talk about Hawaii

525
00:19:39,090 --> 00:19:36,490
doesn't really count as it foreign his

526
00:19:41,340 --> 00:19:39,100
domestic but nevertheless it was the

527
00:19:43,140 --> 00:19:41,350
closest thing to quote-unquote America I

528
00:19:45,150 --> 00:19:43,150
think that FDR could imagine and so he

529
00:19:46,770 --> 00:19:45,160
you know rounded Hawaii up to America

530
00:19:47,940 --> 00:19:46,780
and then just thought I'm not gonna push

531
00:19:52,020 --> 00:19:47,950
it with the Philippines it's too

532
00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:52,030
difficult for my audience hmm that makes

533
00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:53,770
a lot of sense and it is a fascinating

534
00:19:57,990 --> 00:19:55,810
story and it's weird to think about the

535
00:20:01,340 --> 00:19:58,000
fact that Hawaii and Alaska became

536
00:20:04,410 --> 00:20:01,350
States in 1959 I mean my mom was

537
00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:04,420
seventeen I guess I never considered how

538
00:20:08,370 --> 00:20:06,610
recent that really is as you talked

539
00:20:10,890 --> 00:20:08,380
about in the book people were all kind

540
00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:10,900
of clamoring for their suggested flag

541
00:20:15,990 --> 00:20:13,930
but it was unknown if if Alaska and

542
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:16,000
Hawaii would both become States or maybe

543
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:18,010
just one or even Puerto Rico is being

544
00:20:23,190 --> 00:20:20,290
considered at that time to some degree

545
00:20:25,170 --> 00:20:23,200
and I guess I would ask why you think

546
00:20:26,430 --> 00:20:25,180
Puerto Rico didn't make the cut of

547
00:20:28,500 --> 00:20:26,440
course you mentioned it wasn't wide

548
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:28,510
enough were there any other factors

549
00:20:32,180 --> 00:20:30,970
besides that or was that kind of the key

550
00:20:34,820 --> 00:20:32,190
unfortunate one

551
00:20:38,340 --> 00:20:34,830
yes so of the overseas territories

552
00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:38,350
Alaskan Hawaii becomes States Puerto

553
00:20:41,430 --> 00:20:40,090
Rico never becomes one Guam never

554
00:20:43,380 --> 00:20:41,440
becomes one the Philippines becomes

555
00:20:45,870 --> 00:20:43,390
independent American Samoa is not a

556
00:20:47,850 --> 00:20:45,880
state US Virgin Islands isn't and then

557
00:20:50,060 --> 00:20:47,860
so you have this question right why some

558
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:50,070
and not others what's going on here

559
00:20:53,670 --> 00:20:52,450
population maybe is part of it but it

560
00:20:55,860 --> 00:20:53,680
can't be the full explanation because

561
00:20:57,710 --> 00:20:55,870
Hawaii and Alaska are not the most

562
00:21:00,470 --> 00:20:57,720
populated of the overseas territories

563
00:21:02,370 --> 00:21:00,480
maybe it helps that Alaska is

564
00:21:04,230 --> 00:21:02,380
continentally connected even though if

565
00:21:07,290 --> 00:21:04,240
it's not contiguous with the United

566
00:21:09,810 --> 00:21:07,300
States or with a US mainland I think the

567
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:09,820
best explanation really is who lives in

568
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:11,410
these places and who has lived in the

569
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:14,650
20th century Hawaii and Alaska unlike

570
00:21:19,740 --> 00:21:16,690
all of the other overseas territories

571
00:21:21,630 --> 00:21:19,750
have been significant sites for white

572
00:21:24,300 --> 00:21:21,640
settlements where white people have

573
00:21:26,730 --> 00:21:24,310
moved on mass to Hawaii into Alaska

574
00:21:28,470 --> 00:21:26,740
enough to make a sizable dent in the

575
00:21:30,690 --> 00:21:28,480
population and enough to at various

576
00:21:32,100 --> 00:21:30,700
points have control of the politics they

577
00:21:34,650 --> 00:21:32,110
don't have full control over it and

578
00:21:36,540 --> 00:21:34,660
certainly not in Hawaii today but

579
00:21:38,430 --> 00:21:36,550
nevertheless that's like the magic dust

580
00:21:39,780 --> 00:21:38,440
that has always turned territories into

581
00:21:42,090 --> 00:21:39,790
States and it's not just Hawaii in

582
00:21:44,220 --> 00:21:42,100
Alaska the whole history of us

583
00:21:46,020 --> 00:21:44,230
continental expansion within North

584
00:21:48,510 --> 00:21:46,030
America there's been this vexed question

585
00:21:50,370 --> 00:21:48,520
of when can territories become

586
00:21:52,290 --> 00:21:50,380
and yet again the answer is almost

587
00:21:54,540 --> 00:21:52,300
always been when they have enough white

588
00:21:56,730 --> 00:21:54,550
people in them Hawaii and Alaska are

589
00:21:59,520 --> 00:21:56,740
kind of limit cases of that they've

590
00:22:01,740 --> 00:21:59,530
never totally had full white settlement

591
00:22:03,570 --> 00:22:01,750
and enough to sort of swamp the

592
00:22:05,100 --> 00:22:03,580
indigenous populations or in the case of

593
00:22:06,570 --> 00:22:05,110
Hawaii the immigrant populations but

594
00:22:08,940 --> 00:22:06,580
nevertheless they've had a lot of white

595
00:22:10,110 --> 00:22:08,950
population in fluxes and that's been the

596
00:22:16,169 --> 00:22:10,120
thing that's allowed them to become

597
00:22:18,780 --> 00:22:16,179
States man and so to read from your book

598
00:22:22,020 --> 00:22:18,790
jacket it says and how to hide an empire

599
00:22:24,270 --> 00:22:22,030
Daniel M revoir reveals that overseas

600
00:22:26,730 --> 00:22:24,280
possessions while often neglected have

601
00:22:29,549 --> 00:22:26,740
played an essential role in America's

602
00:22:32,730 --> 00:22:29,559
story enabling its rise testing its

603
00:22:35,130 --> 00:22:32,740
ideals and serving as laboratories and

604
00:22:38,070 --> 00:22:35,140
launch pads for critical and sometimes

605
00:22:40,530 --> 00:22:38,080
harmful innovations and it is that last

606
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:40,540
part I wanted to get into what can you

607
00:22:45,450 --> 00:22:42,730
tell us about this harvard-trained

608
00:22:48,930 --> 00:22:45,460
Rockefeller funded fella Cornelius

609
00:22:49,460 --> 00:22:48,940
Rhodes and his troubling work in Puerto

610
00:22:52,980 --> 00:22:49,470
Rico

611
00:22:56,610 --> 00:22:52,990
yeah Cornelius Rhodes time alright let's

612
00:22:59,549 --> 00:22:56,620
do this mhm yeah so cuneo Scruggs is a

613
00:23:01,440 --> 00:22:59,559
doctor he's trained in Harvard and he's

614
00:23:04,020 --> 00:23:01,450
part of a group of doctors that are

615
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:04,030
interested in studying anemia a lot of

616
00:23:09,590 --> 00:23:05,890
people in Puerto Rico suffer from anemia

617
00:23:12,270 --> 00:23:09,600
and so he goes there in the 1930s and

618
00:23:13,350 --> 00:23:12,280
it's really interesting what happens

619
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:13,360
when he goes there and it's really

620
00:23:18,330 --> 00:23:15,610
telling what happens when he goes there

621
00:23:21,419 --> 00:23:18,340
because when Cornelius Rhodes hits the

622
00:23:22,049 --> 00:23:21,429
islands he becomes a different kind of

623
00:23:25,110 --> 00:23:22,059
doctor

624
00:23:26,730 --> 00:23:25,120
it's like Cornelius Rhodes unshackled or

625
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:26,740
unplugged or something like that

626
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:29,890
whatever restraints he felt as a doctor

627
00:23:33,450 --> 00:23:31,450
previously in his career just seemed to

628
00:23:34,710 --> 00:23:33,460
evaporate and because he's got patients

629
00:23:36,750 --> 00:23:34,720
who he has a different kind of

630
00:23:39,060 --> 00:23:36,760
relationship with he's not the only

631
00:23:41,690 --> 00:23:39,070
doctor to have this sense of unshackling

632
00:23:44,120 --> 00:23:41,700
but he's a sort of big case of it

633
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:44,130
and so he just goes nuts he does

634
00:23:47,270 --> 00:23:45,570
everything that you've always feared the

635
00:23:49,580 --> 00:23:47,280
doctors secretly wanted to do if they

636
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:49,590
didn't care about patients so he has

637
00:23:53,210 --> 00:23:50,730
some patients who are suffering from

638
00:23:54,980 --> 00:23:53,220
anemia that he can treat and he refuses

639
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:54,990
to treat them just because he wants to

640
00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:56,010
see what's gonna happen to them

641
00:24:00,020 --> 00:23:57,690
he has other patients in whom he tries

642
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:00,030
to induce disease and does induce

643
00:24:04,340 --> 00:24:02,010
disease just again to see what's gonna

644
00:24:06,020 --> 00:24:04,350
happen and then he writes a letter and

645
00:24:08,150 --> 00:24:06,030
it is one of the most jaw-dropping

646
00:24:10,220 --> 00:24:08,160
letters I've ever historical sources

647
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:10,230
that I've ever read he's writing to a

648
00:24:14,210 --> 00:24:12,450
colleague to a Boston colleague and it

649
00:24:16,190 --> 00:24:14,220
starts up it's like really chatty letter

650
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:16,200
you know I can't believe this guy got

651
00:24:20,450 --> 00:24:18,690
the job he's such a jerk you know how

652
00:24:22,580 --> 00:24:20,460
are things bots gonna help you well here

653
00:24:24,140 --> 00:24:22,590
I am Puerto Rico it's beautiful you know

654
00:24:25,940 --> 00:24:24,150
the island is gorgeous and everything

655
00:24:27,500 --> 00:24:25,950
would be great here except the Puerto

656
00:24:28,910 --> 00:24:27,510
Ricans and then he just like goes off

657
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:28,920
like they're the worst they're lazy

658
00:24:32,990 --> 00:24:30,210
they're thieves they're worse than the

659
00:24:34,790 --> 00:24:33,000
Italians my job here is public health

660
00:24:36,380 --> 00:24:34,800
but frankly I think the island would be

661
00:24:38,870 --> 00:24:36,390
better served by having them

662
00:24:40,460 --> 00:24:38,880
exterminated and at this point you're

663
00:24:43,220 --> 00:24:40,470
just like oh my god where is this going

664
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:43,230
and even still you don't expect where it

665
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:46,170
actually goes which is he then says I've

666
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:47,490
killed eight of my patients I've

667
00:24:50,420 --> 00:24:48,930
murdered eight of my patients a verdict

668
00:24:52,820 --> 00:24:50,430
but I killed eight of my patients and

669
00:24:55,690 --> 00:24:52,830
I'm trying to transplant cancer into

670
00:24:57,830 --> 00:24:55,700
others fingers crossed no luck yet

671
00:24:59,690 --> 00:24:57,840
doctors just torture their patients here

672
00:25:01,220 --> 00:24:59,700
that's what we do it works out well I

673
00:25:03,230 --> 00:25:01,230
hope you're doing well back in Boston

674
00:25:05,660 --> 00:25:03,240
you know basically give my best to the

675
00:25:07,730 --> 00:25:05,670
missus you're sincerely Cornelius Rhodes

676
00:25:09,230 --> 00:25:07,740
it is like you don't even know what to

677
00:25:12,170 --> 00:25:09,240
make of a letter like this as a

678
00:25:15,260 --> 00:25:12,180
historian and historians have argued was

679
00:25:17,300 --> 00:25:15,270
he serious was he not I mean what we do

680
00:25:18,500 --> 00:25:17,310
know about Cornelius Rhodes from his own

681
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:18,510
admissions not just a letter but from

682
00:25:22,340 --> 00:25:20,250
his like published articles is that he

683
00:25:24,350 --> 00:25:22,350
quite clearly treated Puerto Ricans as

684
00:25:27,710 --> 00:25:24,360
experimental animals in an island size

685
00:25:29,210 --> 00:25:27,720
laboratory that was his basic attitude

686
00:25:32,150 --> 00:25:29,220
whether he killed him or not and we can

687
00:25:33,980 --> 00:25:32,160
get into that the letter leaks the

688
00:25:35,060 --> 00:25:33,990
puerto rican staff at the hospital to

689
00:25:37,100 --> 00:25:35,070
find the letter and they start

690
00:25:38,570 --> 00:25:37,110
circulating it and they freak out which

691
00:25:39,830 --> 00:25:38,580
understandably because they think their

692
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:39,840
boss is murdering people in their

693
00:25:43,730 --> 00:25:41,970
hospital and murdering them out of

694
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:43,740
racial hatred and is he gonna murder me

695
00:25:48,050 --> 00:25:45,330
next this is a serious and legitimate

696
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:48,060
concern to have and Cornelius Rhodes

697
00:25:52,430 --> 00:25:49,890
please the island goes back to New York

698
00:25:54,350 --> 00:25:52,440
and two things happen and both of them

699
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:54,360
are really interesting first of all it

700
00:25:57,860 --> 00:25:56,610
becomes a huge deal on the island and

701
00:26:00,170 --> 00:25:57,870
it's certainly not the only thing that

702
00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:00,180
Spurs the Puerto Rican nationalists

703
00:26:04,070 --> 00:26:02,130
independence movement but it's a big

704
00:26:06,140 --> 00:26:04,080
thing and nationalists including this

705
00:26:07,790 --> 00:26:06,150
guy Pedro Albizu Campos are able to

706
00:26:10,220 --> 00:26:07,800
point to the letter and be like look we

707
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:10,230
told you these colonialists actually one

708
00:26:13,460 --> 00:26:12,210
is dead they are not here to help and we

709
00:26:15,380 --> 00:26:13,470
need independence otherwise they're

710
00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:15,390
gonna kill us all and we've got the

711
00:26:18,890 --> 00:26:17,370
letter to show it so that's one thing

712
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:18,900
that happens you know when it becomes a

713
00:26:22,340 --> 00:26:20,490
big issue in the island the mainland

714
00:26:24,620 --> 00:26:22,350
appointed white governor investigates

715
00:26:27,260 --> 00:26:24,630
and then he sort of apparently he says

716
00:26:28,940 --> 00:26:27,270
in another letter that he found yet

717
00:26:30,530 --> 00:26:28,950
another letter by Cornelius Rhodes it

718
00:26:32,570 --> 00:26:30,540
was worse than the first one it was so

719
00:26:34,700 --> 00:26:32,580
but he's like I can't even imagine what

720
00:26:36,410 --> 00:26:34,710
I would it would be worse than that one

721
00:26:37,370 --> 00:26:36,420
but the government suppressed it we

722
00:26:38,750 --> 00:26:37,380
still don't have it today we don't know

723
00:26:40,820 --> 00:26:38,760
what it looks like because it seems like

724
00:26:43,490 --> 00:26:40,830
the governor or someone acting on his

725
00:26:45,410 --> 00:26:43,500
behalf destroyed the evidence and on the

726
00:26:47,090 --> 00:26:45,420
basis of this investigation Cornelius

727
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:47,100
Rhodes even though he was not even there

728
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:49,410
wasn't even tried was found to not have

729
00:26:52,610 --> 00:26:50,610
murdered anyone huh

730
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:52,620
that's one thing it happens it becomes

731
00:26:56,870 --> 00:26:55,050
an enduring issue in Puerto Rican

732
00:26:58,310 --> 00:26:56,880
politics people return to it again and

733
00:27:00,370 --> 00:26:58,320
again it's just like a thing you

734
00:27:04,790 --> 00:27:00,380
remember of course it is cuz it's like

735
00:27:06,950 --> 00:27:04,800
totally nuts hey that happened and be

736
00:27:09,020 --> 00:27:06,960
that there was just this kind of trial

737
00:27:11,300 --> 00:27:09,030
that didn't seem really serious and that

738
00:27:12,890 --> 00:27:11,310
he just got away with it the other part

739
00:27:15,020 --> 00:27:12,900
of it is what happens to Cornelius

740
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:15,030
Rhodes he goes back to the mainland's

741
00:27:21,350 --> 00:27:18,930
goes to New York doesn't get fired can

742
00:27:23,870 --> 00:27:21,360
you like even if the letter is a joke

743
00:27:27,170 --> 00:27:23,880
even if he didn't kill it doesn't get

744
00:27:29,120 --> 00:27:27,180
fired and you know what is fine

745
00:27:32,030 --> 00:27:29,130
he becomes the vice-president the New

746
00:27:35,510 --> 00:27:32,040
York Academy of Medicine when World War

747
00:27:37,370 --> 00:27:35,520
two starts he becomes a colonel and once

748
00:27:39,140 --> 00:27:37,380
when World War two starts he becomes a

749
00:27:41,420 --> 00:27:39,150
colonel in the chemical warfare service

750
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:41,430
he's get a very high-ranking job

751
00:27:45,530 --> 00:27:43,290
his job is being the medical officer

752
00:27:49,250 --> 00:27:45,540
overseeing these tests that the army

753
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:49,260
wants to run of poison gas on their own

754
00:27:52,550 --> 00:27:51,090
subjects like on their own armed men

755
00:27:54,380 --> 00:27:52,560
just to see like does this poison gas

756
00:27:56,390 --> 00:27:54,390
work how about this gas mask what

757
00:27:59,540 --> 00:27:56,400
happens if we use this mask and that gas

758
00:28:02,330 --> 00:27:59,550
what's gonna happen the army tests its

759
00:28:04,850 --> 00:28:02,340
gasses on at least 60,000 men uniformed

760
00:28:06,740 --> 00:28:04,860
men and a lot of them report are--can

761
00:28:07,820 --> 00:28:06,750
because the army is just like yeah

762
00:28:09,770 --> 00:28:07,830
they're not good for fighting but

763
00:28:12,290 --> 00:28:09,780
they're great for testing gasses on and

764
00:28:14,180 --> 00:28:12,300
so there's this really damaging program

765
00:28:15,710 --> 00:28:14,190
where the army is just taking its men

766
00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:15,720
and gassing them sometimes putting them

767
00:28:18,620 --> 00:28:17,370
in gas chambers with gas masks to see

768
00:28:20,420 --> 00:28:18,630
what happens see how long they can stand

769
00:28:22,070 --> 00:28:20,430
up sometimes putting them in the field

770
00:28:23,450 --> 00:28:22,080
and gassing them overhead and seeing you

771
00:28:25,790 --> 00:28:23,460
know how long they can run around and do

772
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:25,800
mock battles and Cornelius Rhodes is

773
00:28:29,150 --> 00:28:27,450
right there basically just nodding his

774
00:28:30,860 --> 00:28:29,160
head being like yes yes good good good

775
00:28:34,370 --> 00:28:30,870
we're learning a lot here he gets a

776
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:34,380
medal for it and then at the end of this

777
00:28:36,950 --> 00:28:35,970
because actually the gases are turned

778
00:28:38,630 --> 00:28:36,960
out to be sort of chemically and

779
00:28:41,420 --> 00:28:38,640
medically interesting one of the things

780
00:28:43,820 --> 00:28:41,430
they do is it can be used to fight

781
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:43,830
cancer and Cornelius Rhodes figures this

782
00:28:47,060 --> 00:28:45,090
out he's not the only one who does but

783
00:28:48,980 --> 00:28:47,070
he figures it out he takes this he runs

784
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:48,990
with it and then becomes the first

785
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:50,010
director of the sloan-kettering

786
00:28:55,070 --> 00:28:52,650
Institute he basically becomes a founder

787
00:28:57,670 --> 00:28:55,080
of chemotherapy and on the mainland

788
00:29:00,890 --> 00:28:57,680
camellias rose is revered and

789
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:00,900
commemorated as a hero doctor one of the

790
00:29:06,710 --> 00:29:03,210
guys who helped get cancer under control

791
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:06,720
and despite having this mango 'like

792
00:29:12,260 --> 00:29:09,570
history on the island none of that

793
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:12,270
sticks on him and for decades he is

794
00:29:16,850 --> 00:29:14,210
remembered in the medical community only

795
00:29:18,140 --> 00:29:16,860
for fighting cancer and this whole thing

796
00:29:19,430 --> 00:29:18,150
this whole little pre career this whole

797
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:19,440
little dalliance he had in puerto rico

798
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:22,170
just goes away for him what happens in

799
00:29:28,269 --> 00:29:25,010
San Juan stays in San Juan

800
00:29:29,590 --> 00:29:28,279
yeah that is a fascinating story and I

801
00:29:31,990 --> 00:29:29,600
know it's one of the things that this

802
00:29:34,690 --> 00:29:32,000
audience is gonna be intrigued by it's

803
00:29:36,730 --> 00:29:34,700
really reminiscent of the Tuskegee

804
00:29:40,629 --> 00:29:36,740
syphilis experiments which is really the

805
00:29:43,389 --> 00:29:40,639
only other branded chapter in history

806
00:29:45,070 --> 00:29:43,399
that seems similar to this where they

807
00:29:47,950 --> 00:29:45,080
tell people they're being treated but

808
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:47,960
instead they're being just monitored and

809
00:29:52,690 --> 00:29:50,210
not treated to see like how does this

810
00:29:54,190 --> 00:29:52,700
disease run its course and it's very

811
00:29:56,950 --> 00:29:54,200
dark and of course when you sign up for

812
00:29:58,870 --> 00:29:56,960
the military it's very you know rah rah

813
00:30:02,230 --> 00:29:58,880
we're gonna fight for the freedoms of

814
00:30:04,029 --> 00:30:02,240
the people but often times history shows

815
00:30:06,879 --> 00:30:04,039
that you can sometimes be used as a

816
00:30:09,610 --> 00:30:06,889
guinea pig as much as you can be used as

817
00:30:11,919 --> 00:30:09,620
a soldier and it's just a lot darker

818
00:30:14,950 --> 00:30:11,929
sometimes than people realize when you

819
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:14,960
turn over those stones yeah and a lot of

820
00:30:19,330 --> 00:30:16,570
those men who are used as guinea pigs

821
00:30:20,620 --> 00:30:19,340
don't speak English we have documents

822
00:30:21,909 --> 00:30:20,630
that suggest that a lot of the men who

823
00:30:23,889 --> 00:30:21,919
are being tested on don't really

824
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:23,899
understand what's happening and even

825
00:30:27,549 --> 00:30:25,370
those who do speak English Porto Rican

826
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:27,559
or not are clearly not given proper

827
00:30:31,149 --> 00:30:28,730
information about what's going to happen

828
00:30:33,700 --> 00:30:31,159
to them and that matters because they

829
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:33,710
literally bear the scars and many of

830
00:30:38,230 --> 00:30:35,090
them to their death people suffer from

831
00:30:40,539 --> 00:30:38,240
emphysema from eye problems from genital

832
00:30:42,070 --> 00:30:40,549
scarring from psychological damage you'd

833
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:42,080
Matt you know getting gassed is a

834
00:30:45,639 --> 00:30:44,330
serious serious business and for some

835
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:45,649
people it's just you know a scar on your

836
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:47,330
arm and that's it for life and you know

837
00:30:51,370 --> 00:30:49,610
that's okay but for other people it is

838
00:30:52,779 --> 00:30:51,380
an ongoing medical issue and they're

839
00:30:54,009 --> 00:30:52,789
also not allowed to talk about it right

840
00:30:56,009 --> 00:30:54,019
like the army forbids them from talking

841
00:31:00,759 --> 00:30:56,019
about it because it's a military secret

842
00:31:02,830 --> 00:31:00,769
mm-hmm mm-hmm it's it's so dark man it

843
00:31:04,539 --> 00:31:02,840
really is and something else I thought

844
00:31:05,980 --> 00:31:04,549
was important in your book that I

845
00:31:07,690 --> 00:31:05,990
haven't heard come up in many of your

846
00:31:10,299 --> 00:31:07,700
other interviews is the testing that was

847
00:31:12,399 --> 00:31:10,309
done on Puerto Rican women concerning

848
00:31:15,310 --> 00:31:12,409
birth control and the quest for the

849
00:31:18,399 --> 00:31:15,320
almighty pill and this too gets pretty

850
00:31:20,980 --> 00:31:18,409
nefarious doesn't it yeah so there's

851
00:31:23,860 --> 00:31:20,990
this way in which colonies can just

852
00:31:25,509 --> 00:31:23,870
serve as laboratories for empires places

853
00:31:28,060 --> 00:31:25,519
to test things out and you can kind of

854
00:31:29,799 --> 00:31:28,070
see why it because from the perspective

855
00:31:33,700 --> 00:31:29,809
of the mainland from the perspective of

856
00:31:36,460 --> 00:31:33,710
the Imperial leaders rulers colonies are

857
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:36,470
places where you can do things in you

858
00:31:38,860 --> 00:31:38,450
won't bear the full consequences if they

859
00:31:41,020 --> 00:31:38,870
go

860
00:31:42,730 --> 00:31:41,030
you can try things out you won't have as

861
00:31:44,650 --> 00:31:42,740
much oversight you actually have a lot

862
00:31:47,130 --> 00:31:44,660
less resistance because the political

863
00:31:48,700 --> 00:31:47,140
processes in cons tend to shore up

864
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:48,710
authoritarian power because these are

865
00:31:51,910 --> 00:31:49,730
people without full political

866
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:51,920
representation and so in my book I tell

867
00:31:57,070 --> 00:31:53,690
a number of stories about professionals

868
00:31:58,480 --> 00:31:57,080
lawyers architects doctors who find that

869
00:32:00,400 --> 00:31:58,490
the colonies are actually really

870
00:32:01,990 --> 00:32:00,410
congenial and places to work and to try

871
00:32:03,670 --> 00:32:02,000
things out to try out bold experiments

872
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:03,680
which is one reason why colonies are so

873
00:32:08,770 --> 00:32:05,690
important to us history because a lot of

874
00:32:10,660 --> 00:32:08,780
stuff gets tested out in them but as you

875
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:10,670
say at the dark history and in Puerto

876
00:32:15,070 --> 00:32:13,090
Rico's case there is just a kind of

877
00:32:16,570 --> 00:32:15,080
affinity between Puerto Rico and

878
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:16,580
particularly medical testing there's a

879
00:32:21,130 --> 00:32:18,290
lot of medical stuff that gets tested on

880
00:32:23,350 --> 00:32:21,140
Puerto Rico it's not just these anemia

881
00:32:25,180 --> 00:32:23,360
experiments it's not just the poison gas

882
00:32:27,610 --> 00:32:25,190
that gets tested not in Puerto Rico but

883
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:27,620
on twitter' Ricans but it's also birth

884
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:29,330
control one of the things that

885
00:32:33,550 --> 00:32:30,890
mainlanders keep saying about Puerto

886
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:33,560
Rico is all of its problems are because

887
00:32:36,940 --> 00:32:34,850
women just keep having too much babies

888
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:36,950
the island is overpopulated it's not

889
00:32:41,890 --> 00:32:40,010
like more densely populated New Jersey

890
00:32:43,270 --> 00:32:41,900
but nevertheless from the perspective of

891
00:32:44,350 --> 00:32:43,280
the mainland you know it's like they're

892
00:32:45,550 --> 00:32:44,360
just too many Puerto Ricans and that's

893
00:32:47,230 --> 00:32:45,560
the cause of all the problems that's the

894
00:32:49,870 --> 00:32:47,240
cause of the poverty that's the cause of

895
00:32:51,610 --> 00:32:49,880
the slums and so there's a lot of

896
00:32:53,530 --> 00:32:51,620
medical interest among doctors in

897
00:32:55,570 --> 00:32:53,540
keeping Puerto Rican populations down

898
00:32:58,090 --> 00:32:55,580
and so you see this thing where just

899
00:33:00,760 --> 00:32:58,100
doctors go to the island and first of

900
00:33:03,430 --> 00:33:00,770
all perform sterilizations on women it's

901
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:03,440
just like record unprecedented numbers

902
00:33:07,030 --> 00:33:05,450
and you know you know it seems like some

903
00:33:09,580 --> 00:33:07,040
of the women wanted to get sterilized

904
00:33:10,290 --> 00:33:09,590
but it still feels a little weird and

905
00:33:11,980 --> 00:33:10,300
when you just look at how

906
00:33:13,870 --> 00:33:11,990
disproportionately Puerto Rican women

907
00:33:16,030 --> 00:33:13,880
are sterilized compared to women and

908
00:33:18,460 --> 00:33:16,040
everywhere else but the birth control

909
00:33:20,020 --> 00:33:18,470
pill is also tested in Puerto Rico back

910
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:20,030
in the bad old days before they got the

911
00:33:24,220 --> 00:33:21,890
dosage right the dosage was way too high

912
00:33:26,710 --> 00:33:24,230
it was tested largely on Puerto Rican

913
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:26,720
women and the accounts that we have are

914
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:28,850
kind of painful to read because what

915
00:33:33,310 --> 00:33:30,890
you'll see is you'll see the on-the-spot

916
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:33,320
medical professionals nurses and doctors

917
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:35,930
saying okay we're running the test for

918
00:33:39,190 --> 00:33:37,850
giving this pill to women and they're

919
00:33:42,220 --> 00:33:39,200
suffering headaches they're vomiting

920
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:42,230
they're experiencing cervical erosion

921
00:33:47,230 --> 00:33:44,450
like it is a really hard pill to be

922
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:47,240
taking and then you see the doctors who

923
00:33:50,230 --> 00:33:48,410
are overseeing is coming from mainland

924
00:33:51,850 --> 00:33:50,240
being like you know Puerto Rican let me

925
00:33:52,590 --> 00:33:51,860
just complain a lot they're hysterical

926
00:33:54,570 --> 00:33:52,600
they're

927
00:33:56,610 --> 00:33:54,580
always gonna complain the pills working

928
00:33:57,990 --> 00:33:56,620
fine whatever they're saying and then

929
00:33:59,250 --> 00:33:58,000
they start running experiments where

930
00:34:01,050 --> 00:33:59,260
despite the fact that they know these

931
00:34:03,990 --> 00:34:01,060
side effects were likely because they've

932
00:34:05,820 --> 00:34:04,000
already been testing it they decide not

933
00:34:07,620 --> 00:34:05,830
to tell women about the side effects so

934
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:07,630
not informed consent on the theory that

935
00:34:11,670 --> 00:34:10,210
if you tell puerto rican women that they

936
00:34:13,170 --> 00:34:11,680
might experience side effects they're so

937
00:34:14,490 --> 00:34:13,180
hysterical they're just gonna report

938
00:34:16,260 --> 00:34:14,500
that they're experiencing side effects

939
00:34:18,570 --> 00:34:16,270
so the pill gets tested and the pill

940
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:18,580
gets approved with this like crazy

941
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:21,490
dosage basically because doctors are

942
00:34:24,150 --> 00:34:23,050
unwilling to look at puerto rican women

943
00:34:26,730 --> 00:34:24,160
and take their medical complaint

944
00:34:28,050 --> 00:34:26,740
seriously then after it starts getting

945
00:34:30,030 --> 00:34:28,060
used more broadly the dosage gets

946
00:34:32,430 --> 00:34:30,040
brought in hand but that's what makes

947
00:34:34,290 --> 00:34:32,440
the pill happen until such a huge events

948
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:34,300
in the demographic and cultural history

949
00:34:37,950 --> 00:34:35,770
not just of the United States but of the

950
00:34:39,570 --> 00:34:37,960
world but Puerto Rico is a testing

951
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:39,580
ground for it and not just a pill but a

952
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:41,770
number of contraceptives get tested

953
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:43,090
first in Puerto Rico before they're

954
00:34:50,850 --> 00:34:47,410
brought onto the market hmm man it is

955
00:34:54,060 --> 00:34:50,860
just so shocking and I do believe John

956
00:34:57,330 --> 00:34:54,070
Oliver not long ago did a piece about

957
00:34:59,310 --> 00:34:57,340
black women today having a very similar

958
00:35:01,860 --> 00:34:59,320
problem going to the doctor saying we

959
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:01,870
have this issue and kind of just being

960
00:35:06,420 --> 00:35:04,210
dismissed kind of that same racist

961
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:06,430
attitude of like you don't even know

962
00:35:10,710 --> 00:35:08,290
what's wrong with yourself you're fine

963
00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:10,720
and it's really just difficult to read

964
00:35:13,980 --> 00:35:12,730
these sources and just think about what

965
00:35:16,020 --> 00:35:13,990
that must have felt like to be in that

966
00:35:17,910 --> 00:35:16,030
position and you can also and this is

967
00:35:19,470 --> 00:35:17,920
tricky to contemplate too but you can

968
00:35:21,690 --> 00:35:19,480
also imagine it from the perspective of

969
00:35:24,750 --> 00:35:21,700
doctors patients particularly

970
00:35:26,490 --> 00:35:24,760
experimental patients whose pain you can

971
00:35:27,750 --> 00:35:26,500
dismiss you know who's paying you can

972
00:35:29,910 --> 00:35:27,760
greet but just being like you'll be fine

973
00:35:31,530 --> 00:35:29,920
that's kind of convenient in some ways

974
00:35:33,540 --> 00:35:31,540
for doctors at least for the doctors who

975
00:35:35,310 --> 00:35:33,550
are more interested in testing drugs

976
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:35,320
running experiments than on you know

977
00:35:38,300 --> 00:35:36,850
really being there with their patients

978
00:35:42,450 --> 00:35:38,310
and healing them and listening to them

979
00:35:44,790 --> 00:35:42,460
mm-hmm mm-hmm and I wanted to grab one

980
00:35:47,310 --> 00:35:44,800
quote here from the section where you

981
00:35:49,710 --> 00:35:47,320
are talking about this contraception and

982
00:35:50,910 --> 00:35:49,720
pill testing in Puerto Rico where you

983
00:35:53,610 --> 00:35:50,920
say when it comes to the pill

984
00:35:55,290 --> 00:35:53,620
the first experiment used medical

985
00:35:57,690 --> 00:35:55,300
students at the University of Puerto

986
00:35:59,970 --> 00:35:57,700
Rico despite having their grades held

987
00:36:02,460 --> 00:35:59,980
hostage to their participation in the

988
00:36:03,990 --> 00:36:02,470
study half of them dropped out and then

989
00:36:05,370 --> 00:36:04,000
you go on to say that they tried

990
00:36:07,170 --> 00:36:05,380
prisoners next and

991
00:36:09,900 --> 00:36:07,180
they went to the housing projects got to

992
00:36:12,630 --> 00:36:09,910
get the poor involved but to encourage

993
00:36:15,900 --> 00:36:12,640
students to be guinea pigs like that is

994
00:36:17,370 --> 00:36:15,910
insanely cruel yeah I mean I don't know

995
00:36:18,780 --> 00:36:17,380
if it's more cool with students or with

996
00:36:21,690 --> 00:36:18,790
people in housing projects or prisoners

997
00:36:24,060 --> 00:36:21,700
but it is yeah so what you just imagine

998
00:36:25,650 --> 00:36:24,070
is these students who are in medical

999
00:36:27,390 --> 00:36:25,660
school and they're told we're gonna run

1000
00:36:30,180 --> 00:36:27,400
a test on you and this is part of your

1001
00:36:31,710 --> 00:36:30,190
class participation and you know you

1002
00:36:33,540 --> 00:36:31,720
might not finish medical school or you

1003
00:36:35,070 --> 00:36:33,550
might fail this class if you refuse to

1004
00:36:37,110 --> 00:36:35,080
participate in this test open up here's

1005
00:36:39,780 --> 00:36:37,120
a pill oh are you vomiting now like yeah

1006
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:39,790
sorry and we don't or I don't know the

1007
00:36:43,950 --> 00:36:42,490
full story of those women right some of

1008
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:43,960
them might have dropped out for other

1009
00:36:47,700 --> 00:36:45,610
reasons we just know that like the

1010
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:47,710
experimental numbers went way down but

1011
00:36:51,420 --> 00:36:50,050
it's it seems really likely that a

1012
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:51,430
number of them dropped out because

1013
00:36:54,330 --> 00:36:53,050
taking the pill is awful or at least

1014
00:36:57,900 --> 00:36:54,340
taking the pill was awful in those days

1015
00:36:59,670 --> 00:36:57,910
of that dosage mm-hmm and it is just so

1016
00:37:02,190 --> 00:36:59,680
sad because while a lot of these places

1017
00:37:03,810 --> 00:37:02,200
we're talking about are or were under

1018
00:37:05,550 --> 00:37:03,820
the control of the US they definitely

1019
00:37:08,700 --> 00:37:05,560
were kept at arm's length

1020
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:08,710
like you said using legalese and using

1021
00:37:15,090 --> 00:37:12,130
terms like colony or territory and it is

1022
00:37:16,980 --> 00:37:15,100
these distinctions that sort of justify

1023
00:37:19,710 --> 00:37:16,990
the actions in these places right I mean

1024
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:19,720
these terms actually have huge

1025
00:37:23,580 --> 00:37:21,490
implications that even go beyond this

1026
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:23,590
medical experimentation thing and even

1027
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:26,650
just our perception of how bad some of

1028
00:37:31,590 --> 00:37:29,170
these crimes really are so let's talk

1029
00:37:34,550 --> 00:37:31,600
about the terms for a second because the

1030
00:37:36,780 --> 00:37:34,560
United States has an interesting way of

1031
00:37:40,290 --> 00:37:36,790
talking about or of not talking about

1032
00:37:44,310 --> 00:37:40,300
its empire the usual with the standard

1033
00:37:46,260 --> 00:37:44,320
word for overseas places that have

1034
00:37:48,090 --> 00:37:46,270
different laws that are politically

1035
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:48,100
subordinated that have a people who are

1036
00:37:51,420 --> 00:37:49,450
understood as different from the

1037
00:37:54,300 --> 00:37:51,430
perspective of the center of power the

1038
00:37:55,410 --> 00:37:54,310
usual word for that is colony and if

1039
00:37:57,630 --> 00:37:55,420
you're a country that has colonies

1040
00:38:00,120 --> 00:37:57,640
you're an empire

1041
00:38:01,769 --> 00:38:00,130
and right when the United States grabs a

1042
00:38:04,799 --> 00:38:01,779
bunch of these places a bunch of

1043
00:38:06,690 --> 00:38:04,809
colonies during and after 1898 there's

1044
00:38:08,759 --> 00:38:06,700
this kind of Imperial shopping spree it

1045
00:38:12,240 --> 00:38:08,769
goes on at that moment there's this

1046
00:38:14,130 --> 00:38:12,250
brief window where leading men just say

1047
00:38:15,660 --> 00:38:14,140
it outright they're like yeah the United

1048
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:15,670
States is an empire we got colonies

1049
00:38:18,569 --> 00:38:17,170
that's a great thing or that's a bad

1050
00:38:20,700 --> 00:38:18,579
thing but we're completely open about

1051
00:38:22,380 --> 00:38:20,710
that time so Teddy Roosevelt talks about

1052
00:38:25,780 --> 00:38:22,390
it like that Woodrow Wilson talks about

1053
00:38:27,970 --> 00:38:25,790
it like that it's not a secret

1054
00:38:31,090 --> 00:38:27,980
but then you know after about a decade

1055
00:38:34,060 --> 00:38:31,100
or so you start to see officials stop

1056
00:38:36,310 --> 00:38:34,070
using the c-word column II and start

1057
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:36,320
going for other euphemisms if they get

1058
00:38:39,010 --> 00:38:37,850
sort of mealy-mouthed when they start

1059
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:39,020
talking about what's going on

1060
00:38:44,380 --> 00:38:41,810
they say territory territory is a

1061
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:44,390
gentler word and it also you know as the

1062
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:45,890
kind of happy history for the United

1063
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:48,650
States Kansas was a territory Montana

1064
00:38:52,240 --> 00:38:50,450
was a territory and then it became

1065
00:38:53,620 --> 00:38:52,250
States so being a territory doesn't you

1066
00:38:55,210 --> 00:38:53,630
know isn't necessarily a bad thing in

1067
00:38:57,550 --> 00:38:55,220
the United States just might mean you're

1068
00:38:59,370 --> 00:38:57,560
not yet a state so territories are where

1069
00:39:01,510 --> 00:38:59,380
they tend to go for instead of colony

1070
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:01,520
where they just don't talk about it

1071
00:39:05,890 --> 00:39:03,650
one thing that I've encountered when I

1072
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:05,900
talk to readers about my book special

1073
00:39:11,890 --> 00:39:07,610
readers who haven't yet read it is that

1074
00:39:13,210 --> 00:39:11,900
they get a little confused just like you

1075
00:39:14,470 --> 00:39:13,220
know about when they're trying to talk

1076
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:14,480
about places like Puerto Rico or blonde

1077
00:39:18,610 --> 00:39:15,890
because they don't really know the names

1078
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:18,620
for these political relationships and so

1079
00:39:21,250 --> 00:39:20,210
they use circumlocutions and that kind

1080
00:39:22,870 --> 00:39:21,260
of thing and I think that's a really

1081
00:39:25,780 --> 00:39:22,880
interesting fact about the United States

1082
00:39:27,970 --> 00:39:25,790
is that the basic fact of empire the

1083
00:39:29,950 --> 00:39:27,980
basic fact of colonies has become so

1084
00:39:31,870 --> 00:39:29,960
obscured that it actually is difficult

1085
00:39:34,330 --> 00:39:31,880
to speak about and a really good example

1086
00:39:37,270 --> 00:39:34,340
of that is how we use the word United

1087
00:39:39,970 --> 00:39:37,280
States so most people when they use the

1088
00:39:42,220 --> 00:39:39,980
word unit say it's refer to the States

1089
00:39:43,060 --> 00:39:42,230
and so then it gets very confusing when

1090
00:39:44,500 --> 00:39:43,070
they're trying to talk about the US

1091
00:39:46,090 --> 00:39:44,510
Virgin Islands which has United States

1092
00:39:48,970 --> 00:39:46,100
in the name it's quite clearly part of

1093
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:48,980
the United States blood does it fit I

1094
00:39:54,610 --> 00:39:51,890
don't know so like when the 2017

1095
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:54,620
hurricanes were approaching the US

1096
00:39:58,630 --> 00:39:56,330
Virgin Islands you'd see newscasters

1097
00:40:00,220 --> 00:39:58,640
saying the Hurricanes are first gonna

1098
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:00,230
hit the US Virgin Islands and then

1099
00:40:03,430 --> 00:40:01,490
they're gonna hit the United States and

1100
00:40:04,660 --> 00:40:03,440
then you get people from like st. Thomas

1101
00:40:06,550 --> 00:40:04,670
being like are you crazy what are you

1102
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:06,560
talking about that actually makes no

1103
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:08,450
sense but it's because you don't really

1104
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:10,490
know the word mainland that you can say

1105
00:40:12,730 --> 00:40:11,690
they're approaching the US Virgin

1106
00:40:14,380 --> 00:40:12,740
Islands and then they're gonna hit the

1107
00:40:17,410 --> 00:40:14,390
US mainland that's a way to say it

1108
00:40:18,970 --> 00:40:17,420
actually makes sense mm-hmm yeah all

1109
00:40:20,740 --> 00:40:18,980
that is really important and I

1110
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:20,750
definitely found myself getting tripped

1111
00:40:25,930 --> 00:40:22,970
up on the right words and phrases just

1112
00:40:27,550 --> 00:40:25,940
trying to prepare for this and on the

1113
00:40:29,830 --> 00:40:27,560
subject of language you have a chapter

1114
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:29,840
called language is a virus that I really

1115
00:40:34,660 --> 00:40:32,570
liked to not only the campaign to get

1116
00:40:37,420 --> 00:40:34,670
English adopted around the world and

1117
00:40:39,100 --> 00:40:37,430
tracking that progress which Hollywood

1118
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:39,110
and now the Internet has helped a great

1119
00:40:41,830 --> 00:40:39,650
deal

1120
00:40:44,260 --> 00:40:41,840
but we've often heard that when an

1121
00:40:46,780 --> 00:40:44,270
empire colonizes a place one of the

1122
00:40:48,900 --> 00:40:46,790
first things it builds is schools so we

1123
00:40:51,670 --> 00:40:48,910
can start the process of westernization

1124
00:40:53,890 --> 00:40:51,680
which you know it's also something you

1125
00:40:55,930 --> 00:40:53,900
can frame in a positive light but when

1126
00:40:57,760 --> 00:40:55,940
you get into the details it's quite dark

1127
00:41:00,580 --> 00:40:57,770
you've got stories in the book of people

1128
00:41:02,620 --> 00:41:00,590
saying that they would get beaten as

1129
00:41:04,750 --> 00:41:02,630
kids for using their native tongue in

1130
00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:04,760
some cases they're forced to celebrate

1131
00:41:09,670 --> 00:41:07,250
their colonization day as a holiday

1132
00:41:12,250 --> 00:41:09,680
they're forced to celebrate the

1133
00:41:14,620 --> 00:41:12,260
birthdays of US presidents I mean this

1134
00:41:16,210 --> 00:41:14,630
stuff erodes a culture I mean that's

1135
00:41:18,670 --> 00:41:16,220
what they're really doing although they

1136
00:41:23,020 --> 00:41:18,680
can frame it in this positive altruistic

1137
00:41:24,820 --> 00:41:23,030
light of Education yeah so the United

1138
00:41:26,740 --> 00:41:24,830
States has done something extraordinary

1139
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:26,750
and it hasn't just done it through its

1140
00:41:29,530 --> 00:41:28,370
formal colonies I mean what's

1141
00:41:31,780 --> 00:41:29,540
extraordinary is that it's not even

1142
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:31,790
beyond its formal colonies it has

1143
00:41:36,430 --> 00:41:35,090
promulgated English to the point where

1144
00:41:37,570 --> 00:41:36,440
English is a global language and

1145
00:41:39,310 --> 00:41:37,580
obviously the United States is not the

1146
00:41:41,470 --> 00:41:39,320
only powerful country that speaks

1147
00:41:43,390 --> 00:41:41,480
English Britain is as well but it's been

1148
00:41:45,790 --> 00:41:43,400
under the United States's watch actually

1149
00:41:47,890 --> 00:41:45,800
it's really recent that English has hit

1150
00:41:49,210 --> 00:41:47,900
the tipping point and become a truly

1151
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:49,220
global language where everyone is

1152
00:41:52,630 --> 00:41:50,570
expected if they're gonna be in a

1153
00:41:54,310 --> 00:41:52,640
conversation and an elite conversation

1154
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:54,320
somewhere on the planet that they're

1155
00:41:56,740 --> 00:41:55,490
gonna have to do it in English or

1156
00:41:59,200 --> 00:41:56,750
they're gonna be expected to speak at

1157
00:42:00,340 --> 00:41:59,210
least a little English that's something

1158
00:42:03,100 --> 00:42:00,350
that's happened under the United States

1159
00:42:06,190 --> 00:42:03,110
is watch and you can see this start of

1160
00:42:08,230 --> 00:42:06,200
it as the United States tries to push

1161
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:08,240
English in its own college and has some

1162
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:10,130
success and some failure it turns out

1163
00:42:14,470 --> 00:42:12,650
it's really hard to get people to speak

1164
00:42:16,330 --> 00:42:14,480
a language against their will and the

1165
00:42:18,430 --> 00:42:16,340
fact that Puerto Rico is still

1166
00:42:20,890 --> 00:42:18,440
spanish-speaking and English is not

1167
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:20,900
fully spoken in Puerto Rico is a really

1168
00:42:24,670 --> 00:42:22,970
good example how hard that can be and

1169
00:42:27,460 --> 00:42:24,680
you're absolutely right sometimes that

1170
00:42:30,220 --> 00:42:27,470
difficulty in pushing the language has

1171
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:30,230
been responded to by US colonial leaders

1172
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:33,050
by using force so it'll take kids in

1173
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:34,850
schools and literally wash their mouths

1174
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:36,530
out with soap if they hear native

1175
00:42:41,590 --> 00:42:39,410
languages spoken there is beatings we

1176
00:42:43,900 --> 00:42:41,600
have an account of a naval officer in

1177
00:42:45,490 --> 00:42:43,910
Guam getting all of the English tomorrow

1178
00:42:47,470 --> 00:42:45,500
dictionaries you could find and burning

1179
00:42:48,790 --> 00:42:47,480
them because why would you translate

1180
00:42:49,900 --> 00:42:48,800
between English and tomorrow you

1181
00:42:51,550 --> 00:42:49,910
shouldn't even be able to do that we

1182
00:42:53,230 --> 00:42:51,560
should just be speaking English here

1183
00:42:55,270 --> 00:42:53,240
it's a difficult

1184
00:42:56,710 --> 00:42:55,280
business and it's a kind of painful one

1185
00:42:58,240 --> 00:42:56,720
too when you actually realize like what

1186
00:43:00,550 --> 00:42:58,250
it took to get somewhere like the

1187
00:43:02,980 --> 00:43:00,560
Philippines on to English it's

1188
00:43:05,260 --> 00:43:02,990
interesting history and to talk about

1189
00:43:07,570 --> 00:43:05,270
something a bit lighter tell us about

1190
00:43:09,730 --> 00:43:07,580
the guano Islands this is pretty

1191
00:43:12,190 --> 00:43:09,740
fascinating stuff that I don't think

1192
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:12,200
many people have heard about I'm glad

1193
00:43:16,270 --> 00:43:14,570
you brought that up partly cuz look you

1194
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:16,280
can't write a history about empire and

1195
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:18,530
colonialism without it being something

1196
00:43:22,090 --> 00:43:20,810
of a dark story right this is not the

1197
00:43:23,740 --> 00:43:22,100
greatest form of government it's

1198
00:43:27,010 --> 00:43:23,750
profoundly undemocratic in all kinds of

1199
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:27,020
baleful consequences and Sue but this

1200
00:43:32,170 --> 00:43:30,290
book is not intended as a litany about

1201
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:32,180
every awful thing that the United States

1202
00:43:37,030 --> 00:43:34,850
has ever done it's rather a book that

1203
00:43:39,370 --> 00:43:37,040
tries to tell you how important empires

1204
00:43:41,350 --> 00:43:39,380
been and how variegated the experiences

1205
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:41,360
have been so there are some chapters

1206
00:43:46,090 --> 00:43:42,650
that are a little lighter in tone and

1207
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:46,100
one of them is this sort of comic tale

1208
00:43:51,460 --> 00:43:49,010
of the seizure of guano islands so the

1209
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:51,470
United States in the 19th century kept

1210
00:43:55,359 --> 00:43:54,170
planting the same crops over and over in

1211
00:43:57,670 --> 00:43:55,369
the same land because it was trying to

1212
00:44:00,730 --> 00:43:57,680
transition to industrial agriculture so

1213
00:44:01,930 --> 00:44:00,740
like wheat cotton tobacco and it turns

1214
00:44:03,460 --> 00:44:01,940
out that if you do that you quickly

1215
00:44:05,740 --> 00:44:03,470
drain all the nutrients out of the soil

1216
00:44:07,180 --> 00:44:05,750
particularly nitrates and you know they

1217
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:07,190
didn't have artificial fertilizer back

1218
00:44:12,460 --> 00:44:09,850
then so there was a like a scramble for

1219
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:12,470
ways to replenish and restore

1220
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:14,450
particularly nitrates to the soil and

1221
00:44:17,050 --> 00:44:15,410
it's like that's a hard thing to do

1222
00:44:18,460 --> 00:44:17,060
especially when you're doing industrial

1223
00:44:20,370 --> 00:44:18,470
agriculture well you're not doing crop

1224
00:44:22,990 --> 00:44:20,380
rotation where you don't always have

1225
00:44:25,150 --> 00:44:23,000
animals to sort of eat crops and then

1226
00:44:27,099 --> 00:44:25,160
poop nitrates back out on top of them

1227
00:44:29,890 --> 00:44:27,109
and it turns out one of the things that

1228
00:44:31,870 --> 00:44:29,900
was really good for this is wha no

1229
00:44:34,599 --> 00:44:31,880
guano can either meet bird or bat

1230
00:44:36,340 --> 00:44:34,609
droppings use this fertilizer but there

1231
00:44:38,410 --> 00:44:36,350
are these islands in the Pacific in the

1232
00:44:40,810 --> 00:44:38,420
Caribbean that are here's what you want

1233
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:40,820
to get a guano island you want a small

1234
00:44:45,970 --> 00:44:44,090
island that is dry so it doesn't rain on

1235
00:44:47,530 --> 00:44:45,980
the island a lot but nevertheless there

1236
00:44:50,230 --> 00:44:47,540
are a lot of birds on so the birds will

1237
00:44:51,609 --> 00:44:50,240
go into the ocean he'll eat anchovies or

1238
00:44:53,380 --> 00:44:51,619
whatever they're gonna eat they'll come

1239
00:44:56,109 --> 00:44:53,390
back on the island they'll poop on the

1240
00:44:59,170 --> 00:44:56,119
islands it won't rain so the poop will

1241
00:45:01,090 --> 00:44:59,180
just pile up for not just decades but

1242
00:45:03,370 --> 00:45:01,100
millennia and you know it's basically

1243
00:45:06,490 --> 00:45:03,380
the entire island is like native [\h__\h]

1244
00:45:06,799 --> 00:45:06,500
hardened [\h__\h] and that is a really good

1245
00:45:09,769 --> 00:45:06,809
friend

1246
00:45:11,749 --> 00:45:09,779
so in the 19th century US farmers figure

1247
00:45:13,789 --> 00:45:11,759
this out and start really trying to buy

1248
00:45:16,099 --> 00:45:13,799
up guano and then it turns out like Peru

1249
00:45:17,870 --> 00:45:16,109
has a lock on all the really good guano

1250
00:45:19,429 --> 00:45:17,880
islands and there's a British monopoly

1251
00:45:21,709 --> 00:45:19,439
that keeps jacking up the prices for

1252
00:45:23,870 --> 00:45:21,719
that polluting in guano so the United

1253
00:45:25,519 --> 00:45:23,880
States is like wow this is like OPEC

1254
00:45:28,609 --> 00:45:25,529
this is like the oil crisis of the 1970s

1255
00:45:30,649 --> 00:45:28,619
one of the most important substances to

1256
00:45:33,709 --> 00:45:30,659
make this economy go is guano and we

1257
00:45:35,749 --> 00:45:33,719
need it and it's too expensive so they

1258
00:45:37,249 --> 00:45:35,759
just start claiming islands everywhere

1259
00:45:39,349 --> 00:45:37,259
uninhabited islands that are guano

1260
00:45:42,169 --> 00:45:39,359
Islands the United States over all it

1261
00:45:43,130 --> 00:45:42,179
takes nearly a hundred of them and these

1262
00:45:45,739 --> 00:45:43,140
are the first times that the United

1263
00:45:47,299 --> 00:45:45,749
States goes overseas it's just these

1264
00:45:49,039 --> 00:45:47,309
like islands that are spread all over

1265
00:45:50,479 --> 00:45:49,049
the Caribbean in the Pacific you know

1266
00:45:51,919 --> 00:45:50,489
they would talk to whalers you know did

1267
00:45:54,019 --> 00:45:51,929
you pass an island when you were out on

1268
00:45:56,059 --> 00:45:54,029
your whaling expedition was it covered

1269
00:45:57,529 --> 00:45:56,069
in [\h__\h] do you remember where it was can

1270
00:45:58,880 --> 00:45:57,539
you show me on a map we're gonna go out

1271
00:46:01,640 --> 00:45:58,890
there we're gonna scrape all that [\h__\h]

1272
00:46:02,390 --> 00:46:01,650
up and just bring it back so you know I

1273
00:46:03,949 --> 00:46:02,400
mean there's something just like

1274
00:46:06,140 --> 00:46:03,959
ridiculous about this but it's also

1275
00:46:08,149 --> 00:46:06,150
serious because all of the legal

1276
00:46:11,059 --> 00:46:08,159
questions that come up about having an

1277
00:46:13,789 --> 00:46:11,069
empire get first worked out on these

1278
00:46:14,890 --> 00:46:13,799
[\h__\h] covered uninhabited islands because

1279
00:46:16,429 --> 00:46:14,900
all that you know it's like

1280
00:46:18,979 --> 00:46:16,439
constitutionally can the United States

1281
00:46:20,689 --> 00:46:18,989
extend overseas how does US law work if

1282
00:46:22,579 --> 00:46:20,699
you're on one of these islands and not

1283
00:46:24,890 --> 00:46:22,589
in a state or in an organized territory

1284
00:46:26,870 --> 00:46:24,900
all those questions come up immediately

1285
00:46:28,189 --> 00:46:26,880
and actually the you know you can say

1286
00:46:33,049 --> 00:46:28,199
the foundation of the United States is

1287
00:46:35,630 --> 00:46:33,059
colonial empire is [\h__\h] I like it and I

1288
00:46:39,789 --> 00:46:35,640
hate to pile on no pun intended more

1289
00:46:42,979 --> 00:46:39,799
darkness to our one light and fun

1290
00:46:46,039 --> 00:46:42,989
chapter of this whole book but you also

1291
00:46:48,199 --> 00:46:46,049
talk about the Neva so phosphate company

1292
00:46:50,689 --> 00:46:48,209
which is another one of these little

1293
00:46:54,589 --> 00:46:50,699
companies that would promise the world

1294
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:54,599
and tell people about the bountiful land

1295
00:46:58,039 --> 00:46:56,249
the paradise they'll be living in all

1296
00:47:01,759 --> 00:46:58,049
the women you're gonna love the women

1297
00:47:04,909 --> 00:47:01,769
and they would ship over African

1298
00:47:07,009 --> 00:47:04,919
American labor and this was a bunch of

1299
00:47:08,899 --> 00:47:07,019
lies is a bunch of poor treatment some

1300
00:47:12,289 --> 00:47:08,909
of these people are illiterate and told

1301
00:47:17,089 --> 00:47:12,299
to sign terrible one-sided contracts and

1302
00:47:18,709 --> 00:47:17,099
we're right back to abuses of the people

1303
00:47:20,710 --> 00:47:18,719
lower on the totem pole but it comes

1304
00:47:23,559 --> 00:47:20,720
into play here too doesn't it

1305
00:47:25,329 --> 00:47:23,569
yeah so let's talk about why this needs

1306
00:47:28,599 --> 00:47:25,339
to happen or from the perspective from

1307
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:28,609
the Nevada plastic company it's cool to

1308
00:47:32,950 --> 00:47:30,890
have a guano island but you need someone

1309
00:47:34,300 --> 00:47:32,960
to scrape that iguana off the island and

1310
00:47:36,940 --> 00:47:34,310
these are uninhabited islands so you

1311
00:47:39,430 --> 00:47:36,950
need to bring laborers over and it turns

1312
00:47:41,710 --> 00:47:39,440
out that scraping and mining guano off

1313
00:47:43,780 --> 00:47:41,720
of guano island is and I check this with

1314
00:47:45,910 --> 00:47:43,790
my fellow historians so I'm confident

1315
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:45,920
saying it the worst job you can have in

1316
00:47:49,780 --> 00:47:48,050
the 19th century because it's basically

1317
00:47:51,670 --> 00:47:49,790
like coal mining and all the lung damage

1318
00:47:55,780 --> 00:47:51,680
you get from that except to do it you're

1319
00:47:56,950 --> 00:47:55,790
on a rein --less remote island and you

1320
00:47:58,750 --> 00:47:56,960
just have to stay there you're basically

1321
00:48:00,130 --> 00:47:58,760
marooned at your workplace and you know

1322
00:48:01,450 --> 00:48:00,140
there's often that fresh water and

1323
00:48:03,609 --> 00:48:01,460
you're you're eating what they called

1324
00:48:06,130 --> 00:48:03,619
hardtack which is you know dry and it's

1325
00:48:07,569 --> 00:48:06,140
like turkey dried meat and people get

1326
00:48:08,770 --> 00:48:07,579
all kinds of intestinal distress and

1327
00:48:10,870 --> 00:48:08,780
then they're having it on the island and

1328
00:48:11,589 --> 00:48:10,880
there's no plumbing it is a bad

1329
00:48:13,809 --> 00:48:11,599
situation

1330
00:48:15,910 --> 00:48:13,819
also the guano itself is really it's

1331
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:15,920
like ammonia it's like very pungent so

1332
00:48:20,260 --> 00:48:17,450
if you breathe in too much of that it's

1333
00:48:21,790 --> 00:48:20,270
horrible for your respiratory system so

1334
00:48:23,230 --> 00:48:21,800
this is a bad situation anyway it

1335
00:48:24,460 --> 00:48:23,240
basically turns out that it's not easy

1336
00:48:26,859 --> 00:48:24,470
to get labourers to agree to do this

1337
00:48:29,710 --> 00:48:26,869
under terms of full consent so in the

1338
00:48:32,079 --> 00:48:29,720
Pacific there's a lot of Chinese workers

1339
00:48:33,550 --> 00:48:32,089
who are basically kidnapped from China

1340
00:48:34,930 --> 00:48:33,560
they're you know it's like you want to

1341
00:48:36,309 --> 00:48:34,940
come check out my boat and then you're

1342
00:48:37,660 --> 00:48:36,319
like on the boat as the worker and then

1343
00:48:38,740 --> 00:48:37,670
they wake up we're sailing now we're on

1344
00:48:41,020 --> 00:48:38,750
the island all right I guess you got to

1345
00:48:43,690 --> 00:48:41,030
work and in parts of the Pacific they

1346
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:43,700
use Hawaiians to mine it in the

1347
00:48:47,500 --> 00:48:45,170
Caribbean and especially on the bus

1348
00:48:49,210 --> 00:48:47,510
Ireland's the de Vos philosophy company

1349
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:49,220
uses African Americans and they trick

1350
00:48:52,630 --> 00:48:50,450
them onto the books they basically like

1351
00:48:54,550 --> 00:48:52,640
just as you said you're gonna be living

1352
00:48:57,160 --> 00:48:54,560
on a tropical island picking fruit and

1353
00:48:58,660 --> 00:48:57,170
romancing beautiful women just sign a

1354
00:49:00,460 --> 00:48:58,670
dotted line and step on the boat and

1355
00:49:02,260 --> 00:49:00,470
that'll be it and then you know they

1356
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:02,270
step off the boat and suddenly they're

1357
00:49:06,099 --> 00:49:04,130
deeply in debt because they've been

1358
00:49:08,260 --> 00:49:06,109
charged for their own voyage over they

1359
00:49:11,079 --> 00:49:08,270
have to pay ridiculously inflated prices

1360
00:49:13,780 --> 00:49:11,089
for clean food and then they're on a dry

1361
00:49:15,130 --> 00:49:13,790
island that is absolutely miserable

1362
00:49:16,660 --> 00:49:15,140
it's called Devil's Island this

1363
00:49:19,240 --> 00:49:16,670
particular islands and we have to work

1364
00:49:21,670 --> 00:49:19,250
mining wanna so not surprisingly some of

1365
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:21,680
them mutiny revolt they get in a fight

1366
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:23,810
and they end up killing five of their

1367
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:26,210
white overseers and you know it's

1368
00:49:29,050 --> 00:49:27,890
national news right because like flag

1369
00:49:31,660 --> 00:49:29,060
white men have been killed by black

1370
00:49:33,579 --> 00:49:31,670
people and the national news is not does

1371
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:33,589
not cut in these men's favor it's not

1372
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:34,490
like Oh

1373
00:49:39,730 --> 00:49:36,410
trust workers stand up for justice it's

1374
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:39,740
like black butchers murder innocent

1375
00:49:43,210 --> 00:49:41,690
white people and so they're hauled back

1376
00:49:44,170 --> 00:49:43,220
to the mainland particularly to

1377
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:44,180
Baltimore where a lot of them come from

1378
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:46,010
and they're gonna be tried in the court

1379
00:49:50,980 --> 00:49:48,890
and the black community in Baltimore

1380
00:49:52,900 --> 00:49:50,990
just rallies behind them it's like okay

1381
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:52,910
we got to help these guys out and they

1382
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:54,770
get this guy who is the first black

1383
00:49:58,930 --> 00:49:56,810
lawyer to have passed the Maryland bar

1384
00:50:00,760 --> 00:49:58,940
and he's on the legal team and they come

1385
00:50:03,670 --> 00:50:00,770
up with this kind of extraordinary

1386
00:50:04,720 --> 00:50:03,680
argument first they say the obvious

1387
00:50:06,820 --> 00:50:04,730
steps are like these workers are

1388
00:50:08,470 --> 00:50:06,830
horrific aliyah pressed like you can

1389
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:08,480
hardly believe it so it's kind of

1390
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:10,010
understandable why I got to fight but

1391
00:50:13,750 --> 00:50:11,090
then they say something else they say

1392
00:50:16,810 --> 00:50:13,760
look these men can be convicted of

1393
00:50:18,100 --> 00:50:16,820
murder in a US Court they like me

1394
00:50:19,780 --> 00:50:18,110
interesting okay why can't they be

1395
00:50:22,210 --> 00:50:19,790
convicted of murder they say because

1396
00:50:24,820 --> 00:50:22,220
this event didn't happen in the United

1397
00:50:26,890 --> 00:50:24,830
States the guano islands are not really

1398
00:50:28,390 --> 00:50:26,900
part of the United States so these men

1399
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:28,400
are not under US jurisdiction they're

1400
00:50:32,170 --> 00:50:30,530
far not domestic and so the US courts

1401
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:32,180
can't try them I mean that's a really

1402
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:33,410
interesting argument because that is

1403
00:50:37,930 --> 00:50:35,690
putting to the question the

1404
00:50:39,340 --> 00:50:37,940
constitutionality of empire are these

1405
00:50:41,050 --> 00:50:39,350
places really part of the United States

1406
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:41,060
or not it goes to the Supreme Court and

1407
00:50:44,710 --> 00:50:42,290
the Supreme Court has to think about it

1408
00:50:46,180 --> 00:50:44,720
and the court decides okay yeah these

1409
00:50:48,220 --> 00:50:46,190
islands are part of the United States

1410
00:50:50,859 --> 00:50:48,230
which then means that the United States

1411
00:50:52,570 --> 00:50:50,869
can indeed expand overseas but then that

1412
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:52,580
raises other questions well it's a part

1413
00:50:55,180 --> 00:50:53,330
of the United States

1414
00:50:56,230 --> 00:50:55,190
what Court has them under it's local

1415
00:50:57,609 --> 00:50:56,240
jurisdiction where were these men

1416
00:50:59,500 --> 00:50:57,619
supposed to go to complain about the

1417
00:51:01,240 --> 00:50:59,510
labor abuses like you can't just have a

1418
00:51:02,650 --> 00:51:01,250
little island out there that's under no

1419
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:02,660
jurisdiction or under no local

1420
00:51:08,020 --> 00:51:05,810
jurisdiction so as I said the legal

1421
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:08,030
foundation for Empire is worked out on

1422
00:51:11,830 --> 00:51:09,290
the backs of these men who are

1423
00:51:12,940 --> 00:51:11,840
ultimately convicted of murder first

1424
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:12,950
their sentence to death and there our

1425
00:51:15,940 --> 00:51:14,450
sentence gets commuted because people

1426
00:51:17,500 --> 00:51:15,950
are so outraged by the conditions under

1427
00:51:19,180 --> 00:51:17,510
which they were working but nevertheless

1428
00:51:20,859 --> 00:51:19,190
once that sentence is commuted they're

1429
00:51:22,710 --> 00:51:20,869
still doing time and they're not just

1430
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:22,720
doing time they're also doing hard labor

1431
00:51:27,550 --> 00:51:25,490
hmm yeah I thought that was a really

1432
00:51:31,570 --> 00:51:27,560
interesting story I'd heard basically

1433
00:51:35,020 --> 00:51:31,580
nothing about but that idea of making

1434
00:51:37,150 --> 00:51:35,030
the lawmakers actually think about the

1435
00:51:39,490 --> 00:51:37,160
status of these places is really

1436
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:39,500
compelling because this also kind of

1437
00:51:44,620 --> 00:51:41,690
comes up with Guantanamo Bay I mean that

1438
00:51:47,010 --> 00:51:44,630
is a really odd case it's in Cuba we had

1439
00:51:48,339 --> 00:51:47,020
an embargo against Cuba for decades

1440
00:51:50,499 --> 00:51:48,349
Castro

1441
00:51:53,259 --> 00:51:50,509
would not recognize the lease and never

1442
00:51:54,579 --> 00:51:53,269
cash the annual $4,000 check that they

1443
00:51:57,609 --> 00:51:54,589
said I thought that was a nice detail

1444
00:51:59,920 --> 00:51:57,619
but it just seems like a odd situation

1445
00:52:03,009 --> 00:51:59,930
if the US won't leave and they're not

1446
00:52:05,229 --> 00:52:03,019
wanted there is it sovereign is it an

1447
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:05,239
occupation I mean these are curious

1448
00:52:10,350 --> 00:52:06,850
questions

1449
00:52:10,980 --> 00:52:10,360
yeah and that curiosity is not just an

1450
00:52:13,500 --> 00:52:10,990
accident

1451
00:52:15,390 --> 00:52:13,510
that's how empires work empires usually

1452
00:52:17,700 --> 00:52:15,400
have these complicated jurisdictions

1453
00:52:20,670 --> 00:52:17,710
because those are enabling from the

1454
00:52:22,050 --> 00:52:20,680
perspective of the Empire Guantanamo Bay

1455
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:22,060
has been from the perspective of

1456
00:52:27,450 --> 00:52:24,370
Washington kind of an awesome place and

1457
00:52:28,980 --> 00:52:27,460
part of its utility is that no one

1458
00:52:31,830 --> 00:52:28,990
really knows about whose jurisdiction

1459
00:52:33,510 --> 00:52:31,840
it's in so technically it's Cuban it's

1460
00:52:35,310 --> 00:52:33,520
under Cuban sovereignty but the United

1461
00:52:37,530 --> 00:52:35,320
States has a lease that gives it all the

1462
00:52:38,910 --> 00:52:37,540
power that it would have if it were a

1463
00:52:41,910 --> 00:52:38,920
sovereign even though it's not the

1464
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:41,920
sovereign and then Cuba wants to eject

1465
00:52:45,330 --> 00:52:43,330
it but the United States doesn't let it

1466
00:52:47,070 --> 00:52:45,340
so what kind of a rental situation is

1467
00:52:49,260 --> 00:52:47,080
that it seems more like squatting than

1468
00:52:50,940 --> 00:52:49,270
renting but think about that from the

1469
00:52:52,890 --> 00:52:50,950
perspective of the Bush administration

1470
00:52:56,940 --> 00:52:52,900
they're like okay we would like a space

1471
00:53:00,450 --> 00:52:56,950
that we control completely and yet that

1472
00:53:02,580 --> 00:53:00,460
is not subject to US law Guantanamo Bay

1473
00:53:04,710 --> 00:53:02,590
is the space that's like a perfect legal

1474
00:53:06,540 --> 00:53:04,720
solution and Guantanamo Bay isn't the

1475
00:53:08,490 --> 00:53:06,550
only space you know in the US Empire

1476
00:53:10,140 --> 00:53:08,500
that has that nebulous quality where

1477
00:53:12,660 --> 00:53:10,150
it's like all these legal anomalies

1478
00:53:14,550 --> 00:53:12,670
abound places that are legally anomalous

1479
00:53:15,690 --> 00:53:14,560
can turn out to be really useful I mean

1480
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:15,700
there's a reason that like so much

1481
00:53:20,850 --> 00:53:18,330
wealth internationally is stored in

1482
00:53:22,710 --> 00:53:20,860
Bahamas and British Virgin Islands and

1483
00:53:25,170 --> 00:53:22,720
all these offshore jurisdictions because

1484
00:53:27,150 --> 00:53:25,180
places like that these little loopholes

1485
00:53:28,500 --> 00:53:27,160
standing loopholes become really

1486
00:53:30,720 --> 00:53:28,510
important for powerful people to do what

1487
00:53:32,490 --> 00:53:30,730
they want mm-hmm-hmm

1488
00:53:33,780 --> 00:53:32,500
I guess I would ask you as we're

1489
00:53:36,870 --> 00:53:33,790
wrapping this thing up do you have any

1490
00:53:38,550 --> 00:53:36,880
goals or hopes for this book beyond just

1491
00:53:41,700 --> 00:53:38,560
the education what would you like to see

1492
00:53:44,070 --> 00:53:41,710
people do with this information

1493
00:53:46,290 --> 00:53:44,080
well it's mainly a work of history and I

1494
00:53:48,750 --> 00:53:46,300
want particularly people who live in the

1495
00:53:51,540 --> 00:53:48,760
US mainland to just remap their own

1496
00:53:52,500 --> 00:53:51,550
country to get a better map of where

1497
00:53:54,090 --> 00:53:52,510
they think they're living and to

1498
00:53:56,700 --> 00:53:54,100
understand that it's not just a mainland

1499
00:53:58,290 --> 00:53:56,710
but I think that also matters today it's

1500
00:53:59,610 --> 00:53:58,300
not just me being at storyand

1501
00:54:00,900 --> 00:53:59,620
complaining that you know the kids these

1502
00:54:03,810 --> 00:54:00,910
days don't know history aren't getting

1503
00:54:06,390 --> 00:54:03,820
it right the United States has five

1504
00:54:09,150 --> 00:54:06,400
inhabited territories now the US Virgin

1505
00:54:10,410 --> 00:54:09,160
Islands Puerto Rico Guam American Samoa

1506
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:10,420
and the Commonwealth of the Northern

1507
00:54:18,630 --> 00:54:13,210
Mariana Islands millions of people live

1508
00:54:21,690 --> 00:54:18,640
in them and in the last two years four

1509
00:54:23,700 --> 00:54:21,700
out of these five territories have been

1510
00:54:26,970 --> 00:54:23,710
threatened to the public existentially

1511
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:26,980
threatened by well what hurricanes in

1512
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:29,050
the case of the US Virgin Islands and

1513
00:54:33,540 --> 00:54:31,570
Puerto Rico a typhoon which is actually

1514
00:54:37,350 --> 00:54:33,550
the worst storm to hit the United States

1515
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:37,360
since the 1930s typhoon you to which I'm

1516
00:54:41,190 --> 00:54:38,650
suspecting that a lot of people don't

1517
00:54:44,670 --> 00:54:41,200
even know about hero needs that hit the

1518
00:54:46,859 --> 00:54:44,680
northern marianas in 2018

1519
00:54:48,599 --> 00:54:46,869
bands you know Guam as you recall was

1520
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:48,609
threatened by North Korea credibly

1521
00:54:52,230 --> 00:54:50,890
threatened by North Korea which said you

1522
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:52,240
know if the United States keeps up its

1523
00:54:56,730 --> 00:54:53,770
over flights which are launched from

1524
00:54:58,470 --> 00:54:56,740
Guam over the Korean Peninsula North

1525
00:55:00,280 --> 00:54:58,480
Korea will surround Guam with an in

1526
00:55:02,290 --> 00:55:00,290
developing fire

1527
00:55:04,060 --> 00:55:02,300
the US mainland is kind of hard to hit

1528
00:55:05,620 --> 00:55:04,070
with a missile from North Korea

1529
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:05,630
Guam's a lot easier to hit and it's a

1530
00:55:10,060 --> 00:55:07,130
lot closer by and it's a pretty good

1531
00:55:11,410 --> 00:55:10,070
target so that's four of the five

1532
00:55:13,839 --> 00:55:11,420
inhabited territories that have been

1533
00:55:17,710 --> 00:55:13,849
threatened with something resembling

1534
00:55:18,819 --> 00:55:17,720
obliteration in the last two years and

1535
00:55:20,380 --> 00:55:18,829
that's gonna keep happening I mean I

1536
00:55:23,589 --> 00:55:20,390
think as climate change gets worse and

1537
00:55:26,500 --> 00:55:23,599
us alliances fray these are the places

1538
00:55:28,030 --> 00:55:26,510
that are gonna be on the line I mean the

1539
00:55:30,250 --> 00:55:28,040
overseas parts of the United States have

1540
00:55:31,810 --> 00:55:30,260
been the front lines of its history for

1541
00:55:33,069 --> 00:55:31,820
a long time and this is going to

1542
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:33,079
continue to be the case today and I

1543
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:36,290
think at this point it just feels urgent

1544
00:55:40,150 --> 00:55:39,010
and embarrassing and painful and

1545
00:55:42,099 --> 00:55:40,160
exasperated

1546
00:55:43,990 --> 00:55:42,109
that after all this the United States

1547
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:44,000
still really hasn't gotten right on the

1548
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:45,290
issue of empire and I think we are a

1549
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:47,450
long overdue for some conversations

1550
00:55:51,940 --> 00:55:49,570
about status of the overseas territories

1551
00:55:53,260 --> 00:55:51,950
about whether the Constitution applies

1552
00:55:55,839 --> 00:55:53,270
to them which currently it does not

1553
00:55:57,579 --> 00:55:55,849
fully and frankly about the US military

1554
00:55:59,410 --> 00:55:57,589
bases which still you know there are

1555
00:56:01,270 --> 00:55:59,420
still hundreds of them all over the

1556
00:56:02,710 --> 00:56:01,280
world and which you know kick off the

1557
00:56:05,559 --> 00:56:02,720
same kind of protest that they did in

1558
00:56:08,589 --> 00:56:05,569
the days of Godzilla mm-hmm well said

1559
00:56:11,230 --> 00:56:08,599
well said if Empire is gonna claim these

1560
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:11,240
areas as their own then we kind of owe

1561
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:15,650
it to them to try to bring big daddy in

1562
00:56:21,190 --> 00:56:17,450
when it's actually needed for once

1563
00:56:22,690 --> 00:56:21,200
rather than when it's not and I guess

1564
00:56:25,150 --> 00:56:22,700
one last thing I wanted to bring up that

1565
00:56:26,770 --> 00:56:25,160
kind of relates to what to do with this

1566
00:56:28,809 --> 00:56:26,780
information I wanted to touch on your

1567
00:56:30,430 --> 00:56:28,819
other book thinking small the United

1568
00:56:32,559 --> 00:56:30,440
States and the lure of Community

1569
00:56:34,690 --> 00:56:32,569
Development I didn't get to read it but

1570
00:56:36,819 --> 00:56:34,700
some lines from the description say

1571
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:36,829
thinking small tells the story of how

1572
00:56:40,599 --> 00:56:38,690
the United States sought to rescue the

1573
00:56:42,790 --> 00:56:40,609
world from poverty through small-scale

1574
00:56:45,609 --> 00:56:42,800
community-based approaches and it also

1575
00:56:47,500 --> 00:56:45,619
sounds a warning such strategies now

1576
00:56:50,319 --> 00:56:47,510
again in vogue have been tried before

1577
00:56:53,050 --> 00:56:50,329
with often disastrous consequences

1578
00:56:55,809 --> 00:56:53,060
thinking small challenges those who hope

1579
00:56:57,940 --> 00:56:55,819
to eradicate poverty to think twice

1580
00:57:01,120 --> 00:56:57,950
about the risks as well as the benefits

1581
00:57:04,690 --> 00:57:01,130
of Community Development there is that

1582
00:57:07,750 --> 00:57:04,700
tendency a lot of people say that it's a

1583
00:57:10,720 --> 00:57:07,760
major component of the Liberal Party in

1584
00:57:12,339 --> 00:57:10,730
America that oh we actually need to help

1585
00:57:13,690 --> 00:57:12,349
these people because they can't help

1586
00:57:17,049 --> 00:57:13,700
themselves it seems like

1587
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:17,059
that's kind of a thread that is getting

1588
00:57:21,609 --> 00:57:18,890
touched on in this book thinking small

1589
00:57:23,349 --> 00:57:21,619
the books seem kind of related but I

1590
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:23,359
guess if people might be interested in

1591
00:57:27,130 --> 00:57:24,770
that side of things what would you say

1592
00:57:29,020 --> 00:57:27,140
to people about the overall message in

1593
00:57:31,329 --> 00:57:29,030
thinking small and how it relates to the

1594
00:57:33,279 --> 00:57:31,339
things we've been talking about today

1595
00:57:36,130 --> 00:57:33,289
I teach at Northwestern and I've got a

1596
00:57:38,919 --> 00:57:36,140
lot of students here who you know are

1597
00:57:41,380 --> 00:57:38,929
really well-intentioned and one thing

1598
00:57:43,269 --> 00:57:41,390
that they often want to do is join the

1599
00:57:45,699 --> 00:57:43,279
Peace Corps you know go out and work

1600
00:57:47,620 --> 00:57:45,709
with poor people in villages and I get

1601
00:57:49,059 --> 00:57:47,630
it like it's such a tempting thing from

1602
00:57:50,799 --> 00:57:49,069
the perspective of these students you

1603
00:57:52,419 --> 00:57:50,809
know there are poor people I want to

1604
00:57:53,979 --> 00:57:52,429
help I want to know that world you know

1605
00:57:56,589 --> 00:57:53,989
I want to share whatever expertise I

1606
00:57:58,899 --> 00:57:56,599
have with them and I guess two things I

1607
00:58:00,099 --> 00:57:58,909
mean one is the book talks a lot about

1608
00:58:01,749 --> 00:58:00,109
the history of that including the

1609
00:58:03,370 --> 00:58:01,759
history of the Peace Corps but with all

1610
00:58:04,569 --> 00:58:03,380
these other predecessors so that where

1611
00:58:06,789 --> 00:58:04,579
the United States we try to resolve

1612
00:58:08,859 --> 00:58:06,799
poverty by sending out some

1613
00:58:10,359 --> 00:58:08,869
well-intentioned men and women who are

1614
00:58:11,979 --> 00:58:10,369
willing to roll up their sleeves and get

1615
00:58:14,550 --> 00:58:11,989
their knees muddy and you know help

1616
00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:14,560
build a hut or something like that

1617
00:58:19,230 --> 00:58:16,450
first of all I mean I still see that as

1618
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:19,240
a kind of form of hubris right yeah why

1619
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:21,010
would you think that you know sending a

1620
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:22,690
Dartmouth graduate I think you know what

1621
00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:24,370
to some Kenyan just gonna really help

1622
00:58:27,750 --> 00:58:26,290
matters wouldn't a Kenyan person be a

1623
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:27,760
better expert yes on how to deal with

1624
00:58:31,140 --> 00:58:29,650
Kenya especially when they don't speak

1625
00:58:34,230 --> 00:58:31,150
the language which is often true so

1626
00:58:36,330 --> 00:58:34,240
that's one thing but more importantly is

1627
00:58:38,550 --> 00:58:36,340
is it's so tempting right because we

1628
00:58:41,070 --> 00:58:38,560
love communities you know we think that

1629
00:58:42,690 --> 00:58:41,080
the modern world has gotten too big and

1630
00:58:44,700 --> 00:58:42,700
you know we have genetically modified

1631
00:58:46,170 --> 00:58:44,710
food and know these like office parks

1632
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:46,180
and suburbs and we used to just live in

1633
00:58:50,100 --> 00:58:48,370
small communities and you know this

1634
00:58:53,070 --> 00:58:50,110
focus on the small and the obsession

1635
00:58:55,260 --> 00:58:53,080
with this grass roots as a way of fixing

1636
00:58:57,150 --> 00:58:55,270
everything I think often shifts the

1637
00:58:58,140 --> 00:58:57,160
blame because if you go to a village and

1638
00:59:00,030 --> 00:58:58,150
you're like okay well what are the

1639
00:59:02,730 --> 00:59:00,040
problems you're gonna see village size

1640
00:59:04,050 --> 00:59:02,740
problems okay well we should put a

1641
00:59:06,090 --> 00:59:04,060
drinking well there and that would help

1642
00:59:08,220 --> 00:59:06,100
and you know drinking wells are cool

1643
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:08,230
that's great but if you want to know why

1644
00:59:12,210 --> 00:59:10,930
people are poor it's not usually that

1645
00:59:14,130 --> 00:59:12,220
there's not a drinking well right there

1646
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:14,140
it's usually that there's a large global

1647
00:59:18,420 --> 00:59:16,330
system that is drastically unfair that

1648
00:59:20,670 --> 00:59:18,430
transmits benefits to some people and

1649
00:59:22,230 --> 00:59:20,680
deprive others of them that seals

1650
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:22,240
borders against people who would very

1651
00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:23,770
much like to move to areas that are a

1652
00:59:27,900 --> 00:59:25,450
little more profitable than others and

1653
00:59:29,370 --> 00:59:27,910
that is at this time heating up the

1654
00:59:31,020 --> 00:59:29,380
planet to the point where anyone is you

1655
00:59:33,030 --> 00:59:31,030
know living outside of those privileged

1656
00:59:35,370 --> 00:59:33,040
parts he's gonna have a more and more

1657
00:59:36,750 --> 00:59:35,380
difficult time just subsisting and

1658
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:36,760
living and there's gonna be more

1659
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:38,170
conflict and there's gonna be a less

1660
00:59:43,530 --> 00:59:41,050
water those strike me is the real issues

1661
00:59:45,540 --> 00:59:43,540
and a rather than this just like should

1662
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:45,550
there be a well here you know rather

1663
00:59:49,620 --> 00:59:47,290
than asking when you know confronting

1664
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:49,630
the problem of poverty how can we help

1665
00:59:52,620 --> 00:59:50,410
these people

1666
00:59:54,490 --> 00:59:52,630
you might ask what have we been doing to

1667
00:59:56,230 --> 00:59:54,500
these people

1668
00:59:58,390 --> 00:59:56,240
and so to the degree that how to have an

1669
01:00:00,820 --> 00:59:58,400
empire my new book is about Empire it's

1670
01:00:02,590 --> 01:00:00,830
about kind of taking responsibility in

1671
01:00:04,270 --> 01:00:02,600
this case of the United States for the

1672
01:00:05,590 --> 01:00:04,280
effects of its actions and that other

1673
01:00:07,330 --> 01:00:05,600
book thinking small is trying to do the

1674
01:00:08,950 --> 01:00:07,340
same thing right asking people in the

1675
01:00:10,930 --> 01:00:08,960
United States to look at global poverty

1676
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:10,940
and not just see you know an occasion

1677
01:00:14,590 --> 01:00:12,890
for help and building a CV line but as

1678
01:00:16,930 --> 01:00:14,600
an occasion to think deeply about the

1679
01:00:18,190 --> 01:00:16,940
larger forces that privilege you know

1680
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:18,200
and often intentionally so that

1681
01:00:21,940 --> 01:00:20,450
privilege the United States and that you

1682
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:21,950
know helps mark other places into

1683
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:27,010
poverty Amen man yes it is kind of a

1684
01:00:31,090 --> 01:00:29,330
condescending thing to hear about a

1685
01:00:33,490 --> 01:00:31,100
small and justice and then immediately

1686
01:00:35,410 --> 01:00:33,500
jump to well how can we help you know

1687
01:00:37,870 --> 01:00:35,420
there's a lot of white knights out there

1688
01:00:40,450 --> 01:00:37,880
and really sometimes the answer is just

1689
01:00:42,220 --> 01:00:40,460
back off or get the corporation's out of

1690
01:00:44,530 --> 01:00:42,230
here and we'll be fine

1691
01:00:46,750 --> 01:00:44,540
so I do I do like the synergy between

1692
01:00:48,990 --> 01:00:46,760
those two books and I thought that's an

1693
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:49,000
important thing to throw in there and

1694
01:00:54,250 --> 01:00:51,770
write on this has been a lot of fun man

1695
01:00:56,140 --> 01:00:54,260
I mean super insightful how to hide an

1696
01:00:57,760 --> 01:00:56,150
empire should be on everyone's shelf

1697
01:00:59,680 --> 01:00:57,770
there's plenty of stuff in there we

1698
01:01:00,850 --> 01:00:59,690
didn't get to talk about before I really

1699
01:01:03,190 --> 01:01:00,860
cut you loose is there anything more to

1700
01:01:05,500 --> 01:01:03,200
tell the people about upcoming projects

1701
01:01:08,590 --> 01:01:05,510
or your website or social media

1702
01:01:10,750 --> 01:01:08,600
platforms that can find you on yeah I

1703
01:01:12,820 --> 01:01:10,760
was on Twitter briefly and then it got a

1704
01:01:15,070 --> 01:01:12,830
little much so I'm not active right now

1705
01:01:17,110 --> 01:01:15,080
but I've got a website and I do a lot of

1706
01:01:18,970 --> 01:01:17,120
writing that goes beyond this so I you

1707
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:18,980
know I write for magazines and I had a

1708
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:20,810
piece on Jared Diamond the author

1709
01:01:25,750 --> 01:01:22,730
recently I turned out to be a little

1710
01:01:27,850 --> 01:01:25,760
critical of him so yeah the book is the

1711
01:01:29,050 --> 01:01:27,860
main thing how do I hide an empire but

1712
01:01:30,940 --> 01:01:29,060
I've got a lot of other stuff on the

1713
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:30,950
website and anyone's welcome to visit it

1714
01:01:35,650 --> 01:01:33,890
and see what they see very cool well it

1715
01:01:37,660 --> 01:01:35,660
has been a real pleasure talking to you

1716
01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:37,670
today man I know it's a marathon session

1717
01:01:40,810 --> 01:01:39,530
around here so thanks for your time keep

1718
01:01:43,950 --> 01:01:40,820
doing what you do and take care out

1719
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:43,960
there pleasure thanks for having me on

1720
01:01:49,620 --> 01:01:46,690
and

1721
01:01:53,640 --> 01:01:49,630
goes the dynamite dear people Daniel

1722
01:01:56,460 --> 01:01:53,650
ever var droppin a unique kind of

1723
01:01:58,770 --> 01:01:56,470
knowledge another one that I knew would

1724
01:02:01,380 --> 01:01:58,780
be well-received and was excited to

1725
01:02:04,020 --> 01:02:01,390
release and I'm sure you guys have

1726
01:02:07,110 --> 01:02:04,030
picked up on my desire over the last

1727
01:02:09,930 --> 01:02:07,120
couple of months to cover this sort of

1728
01:02:13,230 --> 01:02:09,940
space a little bit better we circle

1729
01:02:15,390 --> 01:02:13,240
around it a little with Natalia 40 and

1730
01:02:18,210 --> 01:02:15,400
again with Whitney Webb before her

1731
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:18,220
obscene coverage but when I saw this

1732
01:02:25,620 --> 01:02:21,610
book was coming out I was really really

1733
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:25,630
hoping that THC didn't scare them off

1734
01:02:32,310 --> 01:02:29,410
and here we are so kudos to him for his

1735
01:02:34,830 --> 01:02:32,320
willingness because if we really care

1736
01:02:37,590 --> 01:02:34,840
about the disenfranchised and the

1737
01:02:39,450 --> 01:02:37,600
voiceless victims of empire we should

1738
01:02:43,350 --> 01:02:39,460
highlight these stories because they

1739
01:02:44,910 --> 01:02:43,360
definitely help make our case more so

1740
01:02:47,910 --> 01:02:44,920
than most things that you're going to

1741
01:02:51,450 --> 01:02:47,920
talk about within the American bubble or

1742
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:51,460
should I say American blob but we have a

1743
01:02:56,340 --> 01:02:53,410
lot of people out there friends and

1744
01:02:57,840 --> 01:02:56,350
family who might still blindly trust the

1745
01:02:59,340 --> 01:02:57,850
system or think that it's there to

1746
01:03:02,370 --> 01:02:59,350
protect them or to make their lives

1747
01:03:06,750 --> 01:03:02,380
easier that the game isn't rigged that

1748
01:03:09,090 --> 01:03:06,760
the system isn't that corrupt hmm well

1749
01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:09,100
it's harder for someone to drink the

1750
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:11,410
kool-aid with this plan at the party you

1751
01:03:16,590 --> 01:03:13,810
know what I'm saying to hear these

1752
01:03:19,110 --> 01:03:16,600
chapters of hidden history or suppress

1753
01:03:21,750 --> 01:03:19,120
history should be pretty high opening

1754
01:03:24,450 --> 01:03:21,760
and it's also not something you have to

1755
01:03:26,700 --> 01:03:24,460
debate with someone I doubt the

1756
01:03:29,430 --> 01:03:26,710
conversations you'd have around this

1757
01:03:32,970 --> 01:03:29,440
episode would contain as much well that

1758
01:03:36,540 --> 01:03:32,980
didn't happen as the ones based around

1759
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:36,550
the more hot-button topics might

1760
01:03:42,810 --> 01:03:39,850
and I want to refrain from going too far

1761
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:42,820
outside the parameters of today's

1762
01:03:46,620 --> 01:03:45,610
episode out of respect for our guests

1763
01:03:48,240 --> 01:03:46,630
because I don't want him to feel

1764
01:03:50,010 --> 01:03:48,250
uncomfortable with how I'm kind of

1765
01:03:52,710 --> 01:03:50,020
extrapolating out from what we heard

1766
01:03:56,480 --> 01:03:52,720
today because I would guess that he

1767
01:04:01,170 --> 01:03:56,490
might say that I take things too far

1768
01:04:03,180 --> 01:04:01,180
guilty but there is this sentiment that

1769
01:04:06,150 --> 01:04:03,190
I talk with my buddy Darrell about quite

1770
01:04:09,270 --> 01:04:06,160
often that if you want to summarize what

1771
01:04:11,730 --> 01:04:09,280
white privilege is it's drinking the

1772
01:04:14,310 --> 01:04:11,740
kool-aid that politicians care and

1773
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:14,320
government is there to serve you that

1774
01:04:17,790 --> 01:04:15,970
they're doing the best they can and

1775
01:04:19,830 --> 01:04:17,800
corruption couldn't be as deep as I

1776
01:04:23,580 --> 01:04:19,840
might say it is or we'd hear about it on

1777
01:04:26,940 --> 01:04:23,590
the news just believing the whole

1778
01:04:29,940 --> 01:04:26,950
illusion that's pretty much all naive

1779
01:04:31,980 --> 01:04:29,950
white people [\h__\h] because the rest of

1780
01:04:34,500 --> 01:04:31,990
the people out there have unfortunately

1781
01:04:37,230 --> 01:04:34,510
gotten a closer look at the true colors

1782
01:04:39,030 --> 01:04:37,240
of the big machine it's why when I

1783
01:04:40,980 --> 01:04:39,040
worked at the great American cookie in

1784
01:04:43,380 --> 01:04:40,990
the Columbia mall the guys that got

1785
01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:43,390
along with best were the workers at

1786
01:04:48,930 --> 01:04:45,970
footlocker and lady footlocker what do

1787
01:04:50,730 --> 01:04:48,940
you think we bonded over sports no we

1788
01:04:53,730 --> 01:04:50,740
got talking about politics and

1789
01:04:54,900 --> 01:04:53,740
corruption etc etc and they thought hey

1790
01:04:59,180 --> 01:04:54,910
he doesn't know anything about

1791
01:05:03,670 --> 01:05:00,710
I'm just saying if we don't consider

1792
01:05:07,520 --> 01:05:03,680
ourselves part of the human family first

1793
01:05:10,190 --> 01:05:07,530
then people like Cornelius Rhodes become

1794
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:10,200
tolerable because what he was doing was

1795
01:05:16,700 --> 01:05:14,250
in Puerto Rico and not Kansas and if you

1796
01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:16,710
want to talk about dark aspects of the

1797
01:05:22,329 --> 01:05:20,210
medical system there are other testing

1798
01:05:26,390 --> 01:05:22,339
microcosms we could talk about like the

1799
01:05:29,270 --> 01:05:26,400
Tuskegee syphilis experiments it's all

1800
01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:29,280
good history to know and like building a

1801
01:05:34,220 --> 01:05:30,690
case for some of the more extreme

1802
01:05:37,819 --> 01:05:34,230
opinions of our other guests you have to

1803
01:05:39,980 --> 01:05:37,829
as they say establish a pattern of

1804
01:05:42,470 --> 01:05:39,990
behavior

1805
01:05:43,520 --> 01:05:42,480
and the next time someone says well they

1806
01:05:46,310 --> 01:05:43,530
wouldn't do that

1807
01:05:50,150 --> 01:05:46,320
you can simply point out the things they

1808
01:05:53,180 --> 01:05:50,160
have done that nobody is debating and I

1809
01:05:56,780 --> 01:05:53,190
think those things alone will speak

1810
01:05:59,180 --> 01:05:56,790
volumes but I really did try to keep my

1811
01:06:01,730 --> 01:05:59,190
crazy in today because I care too much

1812
01:06:04,490 --> 01:06:01,740
about the actual content of the book

1813
01:06:07,930 --> 01:06:04,500
Daniel wrote and I also respect his path

1814
01:06:10,550 --> 01:06:07,940
in academia even if it hasn't been mine

1815
01:06:12,890 --> 01:06:10,560
the stuff about the Philippines and

1816
01:06:15,859 --> 01:06:12,900
Pearl Harbor was great and eye-opening

1817
01:06:18,440 --> 01:06:15,869
of course the reckless medical testing

1818
01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:18,450
in Puerto Rico was key and his own

1819
01:06:23,080 --> 01:06:20,490
personal family connection to some of

1820
01:06:26,140 --> 01:06:23,090
this was also surprising and interesting

1821
01:06:29,390 --> 01:06:26,150
but I think that was in the second hour

1822
01:06:31,760 --> 01:06:29,400
regardless you should all be very well

1823
01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:31,770
stuffed from all the food for thought

1824
01:06:38,830 --> 01:06:34,890
today and I just can't get over the fact

1825
01:06:41,900 --> 01:06:38,840
that Cornelius Rhodes he did what he did

1826
01:06:45,500 --> 01:06:41,910
he worked for the Rockefeller Institute

1827
01:06:47,470 --> 01:06:45,510
of medical research for a decade and was

1828
01:06:50,270 --> 01:06:47,480
the first director of the

1829
01:06:52,490 --> 01:06:50,280
sloan-kettering Institute and the first

1830
01:06:55,630 --> 01:06:52,500
director of the combined Memorial

1831
01:06:58,870 --> 01:06:55,640
sloan-kettering Cancer Center

1832
01:07:02,589 --> 01:06:58,880
plus the story of how chemotherapy was

1833
01:07:04,239 --> 01:07:02,599
derived is a bit troublesome but I'm not

1834
01:07:08,589 --> 01:07:04,249
really insinuating anything further

1835
01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:08,599
those are just facts and maybe he is an

1836
01:07:13,890 --> 01:07:11,690
isolated incident to some degree it's

1837
01:07:16,950 --> 01:07:13,900
not for me to say

1838
01:07:19,440 --> 01:07:16,960
but a huge appreciation to Daniel for

1839
01:07:21,870 --> 01:07:19,450
highlighting these pieces of history and

1840
01:07:24,180 --> 01:07:21,880
for writing his book

1841
01:07:26,100 --> 01:07:24,190
of course even just the first hour of

1842
01:07:28,470 --> 01:07:26,110
this interview is full of things that I

1843
01:07:31,620 --> 01:07:28,480
didn't know that I'm glad I know now and

1844
01:07:33,750 --> 01:07:31,630
that's also true right on through the

1845
01:07:36,390 --> 01:07:33,760
second hour as well we talked about

1846
01:07:40,770 --> 01:07:36,400
several other aspects of his book how to

1847
01:07:43,980 --> 01:07:40,780
hide an empire such as using colonies as

1848
01:07:45,900 --> 01:07:43,990
sacrifice zones the contentious

1849
01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:45,910
relationship between the founding

1850
01:07:51,060 --> 01:07:47,890
fathers and the frontiersman I thought

1851
01:07:54,300 --> 01:07:51,070
that was fascinating the lost history of

1852
01:07:56,280 --> 01:07:54,310
Sequoia and the integration of Cherokee

1853
01:07:58,410 --> 01:07:56,290
Nation did you know they even had their

1854
01:08:02,910 --> 01:07:58,420
own newspaper they were trying to play

1855
01:08:06,770 --> 01:08:02,920
ball they came to the game and sadly it

1856
01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:06,780
seems that the system just said no

1857
01:08:11,930 --> 01:08:09,210
we also talked about Daniels thoughts on

1858
01:08:15,650 --> 01:08:11,940
the intentionality behind the spread of

1859
01:08:18,440 --> 01:08:15,660
smallpox in the new world the effects of

1860
01:08:22,010 --> 01:08:18,450
Empire on Daniels own family tree as I

1861
01:08:24,289 --> 01:08:22,020
mentioned and the ever-important

1862
01:08:28,280 --> 01:08:24,299
underlined depth of the Godzilla

1863
01:08:31,010 --> 01:08:28,290
franchise lots of diverse material guano

1864
01:08:35,160 --> 01:08:31,020
islands as well that early America stuff

1865
01:08:37,620 --> 01:08:35,170
was also just some of my favorite

1866
01:08:39,720 --> 01:08:37,630
but anyway you know the drill we offer

1867
01:08:41,970 --> 01:08:39,730
the first hour with no strings or

1868
01:08:44,160 --> 01:08:41,980
sponsors attached and if you want to

1869
01:08:46,080 --> 01:08:44,170
support what I do if you see the value

1870
01:08:48,330 --> 01:08:46,090
and its continued existence in the

1871
01:08:51,090 --> 01:08:48,340
endless sea of options sign up for the

1872
01:08:55,790 --> 01:08:51,100
higher side chats + and get an extra

1873
01:08:59,630 --> 01:08:55,800
hour of our very deep and varied shows

1874
01:09:03,270 --> 01:08:59,640
including a long archive that goes

1875
01:09:05,370 --> 01:09:03,280
further back than you know and that set

1876
01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:05,380
in higher side news I think the joint

1877
01:09:11,640 --> 01:09:07,690
session this month is going to be on the

1878
01:09:14,340 --> 01:09:11,650
20th again 7 p.m. Pacific time I will

1879
01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:14,350
keep you reminded as we get closer to it

1880
01:09:20,430 --> 01:09:17,050
and with that I'm getting out of here

1881
01:09:23,100 --> 01:09:20,440
I've done my part your move pawns of

1882
01:09:31,310 --> 01:09:23,110
empire agents of the elite and gears of

1883
01:09:34,340 --> 01:09:31,320
the big machine your [\h__\h] move oh no

1884
01:09:38,930 --> 01:09:34,350
you see

1885
01:09:43,720 --> 01:09:38,940
the world isn't random it's attached

1886
01:09:49,490 --> 01:09:43,730
above our strength control over

1887
01:09:56,189 --> 01:09:49,500
everything the 95 is trying to steal

1888
01:10:02,040 --> 01:09:56,199
yeah now don't that job seem silly hello

1889
01:10:06,209 --> 01:10:02,050
here I should I play back recordings

1890
01:10:07,240 --> 01:10:06,219
from some spy agency which we were

1891
01:10:10,609 --> 01:10:07,250
younger

1892
01:10:16,020 --> 01:10:10,619
[Music]

1893
01:10:24,479 --> 01:10:16,030
I'll be thankful when it's exposed and

1894
01:10:32,370 --> 01:10:24,489
see such a difference between in the

1895
01:11:30,640 --> 01:10:40,240
[Music]

1896
01:11:35,439 --> 01:11:30,650
oh no they're cartoons it's so typical

1897
01:11:43,919 --> 01:11:35,449
of me to talk about this stuff I'm sorry

1898
01:11:48,130 --> 01:11:43,929
that's good and well did you ever hear

1899
01:11:50,340 --> 01:11:48,140
argument the nothing really happens it's

1900
01:11:53,740 --> 01:11:50,350
no secret

1901
01:11:56,400 --> 01:11:53,750
and the best

1902
01:12:06,960 --> 01:11:56,410
it's done

1903
01:12:57,390 --> 01:12:16,190
[Music]

1904
01:13:33,450 --> 01:12:57,400
[Applause]